Opening

Lyndon: Are you ready to get stuck into it?

Breallyn: Ready to go?

Lyndon: All right, let’s go.

Welcome to Pain in the Arts, where the pursuit of meaningful art meets the unpredictable demands of real life.

Breallyn: I’m Breallyn.

Lyndon: And I am Lyndon.

Breallyn: Thank you for joining us. Busy day today?

Lyndon: No.

Breallyn: No, not for you?

Lyndon: No.

Breallyn: Oh, it’s good.

Lyndon: I don’t subscribe to being busy anymore.

Breallyn: Lucky for some, I guess.

Lyndon: I just I waver between being semi-retired and overwhelmed, striking the balance there. That’s, my constant state of being. Everything’s great till it isn’t. And, yeah.

Daily Experiences

Breallyn: I feel like I’ve flip flopped around today. Doing well, wearing all the different hats. I’ve pulled a night shift with Birdie and then I’ve jumped on to consult with a new client for my copywriting business. Then I’ve prepared an episode that I will be shortly bringing to the studio here, which has been good. But I believe it was your week.

Lyndon: Yeah.

Breallyn: So I guess you were more into – the semi retirement.

Lyndon: Well, like I said in previous episodes, it doesn’t matter whose week it was, what’s important is that we alternate at some point. Right.

Breallyn: There you go. Today I’m on fire clearly. So

Lyndon: Who’s counting? Not me.

Car Negotiations and Lifestyle

Lyndon: I have had a week of, let’s just say in summary, a week of looking at getting a secondhand car, offering someone the money they wanted and them not selling it to me. So that was new. Yeah. But so the hunt continues for a, second car for the gas

Breallyn: guzzler that we’re after. Yep.

Lyndon: Do you remember the time when we just had one car?

Breallyn: No, when.

Lyndon: No. Me either.

Breallyn: We’ve never had one. We

Lyndon: had one car each. Okay. So nothing’s changed. and

Breallyn: when you say second car, it’s actually our third car here. We already have two cars.

Lyndon: Yeah. this, is the thing though. We work from home, so the cars aren’t getting used, but the second car, let’s say, it doesn’t get used much. So it’s really more of a lifestyle vehicle, anyway.

Breallyn: Yeah. So I think that’s taken up quite a lot of your head space this week trying to negotiate with somebody who offered a roadworthy but wasn’t prepared to actually come through with it. I think that was the hitch point.

Lyndon: Anyw who, yeah, that’s got me all in a frazzle. It has,

Breallyn: I think you’ve lost many nights sleep over it.

Lyndon: I did, actually. There was two nights in particular I did anyway, it’s just my personality. It’s who I am. There’s nothing wrong with me. And I really take umbrage to the fact that you would suggest that I need to seek help. Anyway. What, what are we talking about today? Now? What’s your gem? What are you bringing today?

Topic Introduction: Money, Art, and the Hustle

Breallyn: Today we are talking about money, which

Lyndon: Well, there you go. I guess the story about the car was on topic time. Yeah.

Breallyn: Timely. There you go. Today is about art and the hustle of making it all work. I started to prepare this topic just because generally it’s relevant, to artists, people that are trying to create something, but also make a living and so on.

But, as I was going along, I realized that it’s actually quite timely because one of our sons is trying to figure out, what to do once he finishes school. He is in his last year of school. Ideally, he’d love to be a drummer full time and not have to worry about other work.

But we have this—not very fun—position of trying to encourage him to pursue his music, but also, if you wanna move out, if you wanna buy a car, if you wanna do these things, you’ve gotta make a living as well. So it is the endless struggle of artists, I think, to juggle the two things.

And yeah. Timely for our son and perpetually a topic that we have come up with again and again in our lives of just trying to make ends meet and still give time and dedication to our arts. So that’s what we’re talking about, money.

Lyndon’s Reflections: Early Hustle and Making Ends Meet

Lyndon: So I don’t really have a leg to stand on because, when I—’cause I remember thinking the same way as our son and, yeah, I had jobs and things that I was doing, but music was the main focus. So I was working at 7-Eleven and I was a guitar teacher, those were two jobs that I had.

And I was living on my own, so I was, yeah, 18 and living in a unit renting. So yeah, I had to make ends meet and I couldn’t have done it just with my original music, that’s for sure. In fact, if I remember back to the days when I was really starting to get serious about promoting myself and—

So on. Every time I did a gig, it cost me money.

I know. Yeah. So I was sort saying like, “Where do I stand?” And while I encourage him too—I certainly won’t be encouraging him not to be a drummer—but yeah, it is. When you’re that age and you’ve got so much passion about this one thing, it’s really hard to see beyond that until you are in a position where you have to pay the rent.

Yeah, I know. And you have to put food on the table and that, that’s probably the only thing that makes a difference.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Yeah.

The Struggle: Compromising Art for Financial Necessity

Breallyn: It would be nice if we didn’t have to make those choices or think that way of compromising the artistic pursuit in order to just make ends meet, but somehow our society’s organized itself in a way that means that we have to do it like that. I don’t know why, but it is like that; there’s talk now of implementing universal basic income, which would be pretty great. But from my point of view anyway, until that happens, I guess we’ll have to…

Lyndon: Universal basic income.

Yeah. That would be a pretty tough ask.

Breallyn: It would be. I know, but Brian Eno some ideas until we get there.

Lyndon: Brian Eno is a firm believer that it’s better to have deadlines and a small budget than to have a massive budget and no deadlines.

So Brian Eno, for anyone that doesn’t know, is a music producer—he’s produced for David Bowie, among others—and he’s also a critical thinker. He’s definitely a firm believer in that.

You were just talking about why society is… what were you saying? It would be nice to just be able to not have to worry about money and just focus on your art. But I—and, yeah. That’s what made me think of Brian Eno because in that situation, you’ve just got copious, endless amounts of time.

Yeah. And for someone like me, I’d probably never finish anything.

I really do need a deadline. Yeah. And I think that’s probably true for people in any field.

Breallyn: I guess. So yeah, deadlines and budgets are the constraints that do make you knuckle down and get something done, get things finished, and that’s good.

And budget,

Lyndon: The budget’s a big one. As this week I’ve been back looking at grants and I didn’t realize how many artists in Australia—maybe not surviving off of grants, but certainly grants make up a big part of their, if not their annual income. It certainly makes up a big part of them being able to create and continue creating.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: So I know something I’ve come across starting this studio here at Morning Phase is I’ve had a couple of people that were super keen to record with me, but it all comes down to budget. And I don’t mean that because I’m priced myself out of the market. It’s literally them saying, “Okay, if I record and put money into this, that means I don’t have money for something else”—that I really need it for. And so that’s what started me looking at grants again. Yeah, yeah.

Breallyn: Yeah. Grants are a good way to finance projects and get things done.

Grant Writing and Freelancing

Lyndon: They’re just very intimidating when you’ve gotta sit down and write them. So I know…

Breallyn: I’m thinking of doing a bit of a deep dive into grant writing. ‘Cause as a copywriter, I write a lot of things, but grants is not one of the things I’ve specialized in. So I’ve turned away a couple of clients because I’ve just said, “Look, find somebody who has written grants and has specialized in it.” But maybe it’s something that I should, I don’t know, maybe I will for you and then perhaps extend my services. Yeah.

Lyndon: Yeah, I was in an ask-me-anything group chat with Isabella Man Freddy, who is just a fantastic Australian singer and songwriter. And she was saying to the group that it’s a full-time job writing grants. So you don’t just write one or two and then cross your fingers and hope for the best. It needs to be part of your annual activity.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: That’s absolutely what I’m looking at doing now, because if I can get a grant—a budget—to record an artist, that means I can offer my services to someone and we can create something great together. We can collaborate and do that without the worries of, or the stresses of, the studio costs of funding it.

Breallyn: Cost. Yeah. Yep.

Diversifying Income Streams and Residual Income

Breallyn: Anyway, I’ve derailed your topic right from the outset.

Lyndon: No, you haven’t, ’cause that was gonna be within it—grants are one of the things—but I’ve got a number of ways of not making money. It’s not just ideas for making money, but it’s ways in which artists fund themselves and make life work that I thought we could discuss. And as I was doing the research and putting them all down, I realized that between us, we’ve done a number of them—dabbled in quite a lot of them. And I would say a lot of our friends in the artistic community have as well; you just try to find all these different ways of making life work.

The first one, which would be ideal—and our son would love to do—is just doing your art and getting paid for it. So whether you are a writer, a musician, or a visual artist, just pursue that golden artistic dream that you have, chase down those ideas and get them done. And actually be recognized for that specific work, with no other side hustles or anything, so that would be lovely.

We haven’t managed to do that one.

Lyndon: While you’re saying it, I was thinking how I imagine that people who have done that have possibly had zero regard for the outcome—when you were saying, and that’s what they’d be noted for, to just do this one thing. That’s what you do. It can even be unique to you. And then that’s what you get known for. I just can’t imagine that anyone who has done that has thought about it that far ahead.

Breallyn: No. It seems to be—not always, certainly, but…

Lyndon: As in, the commerce side of it hasn’t bothered them. It hasn’t been the first thing. Mind you, other things suffer and fall away historically. You do have to make a sacrifice, living below your means for as long as it takes—potentially forever. And not everyone is up to that.

Breallyn: Yeah. And even then, I think it’s—I know for writers it can be a hard thing. Like you write a first book and it gets some notoriety and you might win a prize or something, or get a publishing deal—the pressure is on to write that second book and have that also be as good in quality, like publishing a book every single year to build that body of work which will then bring in that income stream over time. But, in the meantime, it can be extremely hard and, yeah, life can be compromised.

Freelancing and the Gig Economy

Lyndon: I generalized too—just a couple of people popped into my head that I thought, maybe they’re doing it. Yeah, so that would be great to be able to just focus on that art and have it almost incidentally bring you financial stability. I guess we’d want to encourage all our friends or all artists doing stuff to really be able to focus on that, even if you’ve got to take some of these other measures at the same time.

Breallyn: Yeah. To go for the purity of the art that you want to create. The second thing I wanted to talk about was, I guess, freelancing and the gig economy. It’s not something we’ve always been doing, but certainly it is at the moment.

You can do a freelancing type job with your artistic skills and build a business that way. That’s what I’ve done with my copywriting business.

If you’re a visual artist, you could be doing illustrations or graphic design work; if you’re in music production, you could be writing music for jingles and other artists. So there are always opportunities there—if you’re willing to look for them.

Lyndon: The opportunities are endless.

Breallyn: They are endless. Yeah.

Lyndon: Often in the gig economy, it does allow for creativity. You could just about find someone making money from anything.

Breallyn: Just about. Yeah.

Lyndon: It’s just a matter of working out what that could be. Some lateral thinking. I guess the smart way would be to see where an opening in the market is, but even then, some things you won’t see if it’s not your run-of-the-mill regular kind of thing.

Breallyn: Yeah. I think sometimes artists just find that they’re commissioned to do stuff and then more work finds its way to them, and they end up opening a niche for themselves that way. Or else it’s a strategic thing: “Hey, I’ve gotta make some money. How am I going to do it?”

I think the thing we found with working this way is that it’s a good way to use your skills and at least stay in the stream of the arts you enjoy doing to make money. But it does seem to take a lot of time and effort—focus, building a business, figuring out invoicing, contracts, and so on.

So you end up spending a lot of time on the business of making your art available to others. It is a good way to do it. You can build good portfolios of your skills to show what you’re doing across various networks. You can use platforms like Upwork or Fiverr to connect with potential clients looking for your creative skillset.

If you create a consistent brand across all your marketing and what you’re doing, people will find you and start looking for what you do, rather than you having to bend to what others want. So that can be a good way to work.

YouTube and Niche Opportunities for Retired Creatives

Lyndon: I was just thinking that in the gig economy, sometimes people will take a facet of what they do artistically and that becomes the gig or the part of it that they monetize.

Breallyn: Yes. And you…

Lyndon: …see this with artists online. For instance, painters and illustrators online may have a particular way they like to work that they won’t sell—they’re certainly not gonna be like making prints of it and so on. But then there’s another aspect to their work where they do make prints and they sell them as postcards, tee towels, etc.

Breallyn: That’s actually leading into my next point: diversifying income streams. Yes—selling prints or homemade art through Etsy and local markets, or if you’re not a visual artist, developing and selling digital products like eBooks to reach a wide audience and scale your income. There’s also running workshops and creating online courses, which are huge at the moment for any skillset.

Lyndon: I even noticed there’s a niche on YouTube of retired people encouraging each other to create a YouTube channel.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Because they go, “You know what?” It’s predominantly been a space for 20- to 30-year-olds. But we’ve got something to offer—we’ve got our life experience.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: So if you’re into it— I saw a guy and he was, I think, particularly into cycling. He worked as a corporate guy, but had this passion for cycling, so he thought, “If I do a YouTube channel about that, my time is my own rather than working part-time in a cycle shop.” And he had a mate who was a fly fisher making his own flies. He found a niche in that too.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: I thought that was really interesting—that there was this whole demographic of people finding an outlet in a medium unfamiliar to them, which could potentially bring them enough side income in their retired years so they wouldn’t have to work in a bricks-and-mortar store.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Yeah, that’s…

Breallyn: Definitely, it’s interesting. Definitely a good way to make something fun and potentially get an income for those retired people taking all our jobs.

Lyndon: Oh dear mate. Taking up all of the YouTube channels that there are. Get out of our digital space.

Breallyn: Go find your own niche.

Lyndon: Go create your own interweb.

Breallyn: So yeah, so looking at how you can diversify the income you’re making, or if you have a product or a service, can you reimagine it so that it fits a different market or package it in a different way so you can sell it in a different kind of space.

That’s a good way to do it. There’s also residual income opportunities—that’d be the life. That’d be awesome.

Residuals—things that generate income over time, like stock photography, licensing your artworks, and obviously royalties from books or music, which we’d love to be doing at some point.

Breallyn: So yeah, just those passive income streams can support your long-term financial stability. If you think about licensing your artwork for things like prints, apparel, or home decor. Home decor?

Lyndon: Decor,

Breallyn: I can’t say decor. It’s a home decor.

Lyndon: I believe it’s decor, but say decor. If you want home decor—decor,

Breallyn: I can’t talk. Visual artists can license their artwork for merchandise such as prints and home decor, getting ongoing income through royalties, although I seem to find many visual artists end up with their works stolen literally by unethical brands who then just use their designs on t-shirts, beach towels, and whatnot.

So that’s always a risk—heartbreaking. Yeah. Not good. And if you’re a writer, you can write and self-publish books or eBooks, or create audiobooks, and get direct sales and long-term royalties. It’s,

Lyndon: I feel so, like, all of this is true. This is what—what does it all fall under the banner of diversifying?

Breallyn: Oh, embracing residual income opportunities is what I’ve written as, oh, residual income opportunities.

Lyndon: I don’t know, I just—yeah, it’s all true. It’s just strange, just talking about it. Like when you just hear one thing after another, it’s so de-energising, isn’t it? It just seems so, I don’t know, why is that?

Breallyn: Maybe because we know from experience how much effort it takes to get these things. It sounds great—oh, awesome residual income: create something and then let the money continually flow in. But we know that’s not really like that—you’ve got to keep marketing, you’ve got to keep working at it all the time.

Lyndon: I don’t think that’s what I was touching on. I think I’m touching on the fact that if we were talking about the inspiration behind a work, the genesis of an idea, or how something came to be, I would find that really energising. But when we’re actually talking about all these different avenues and things of making money from it, it’s, yeah. It’s just I have a completely, yeah, I just have a different feeling about it.

Breallyn: And I feel like that’s been how our struggle has always been: we get inspired about the work and the ideas and then, obviously, trying to make ends meet crops up. So then you go, “Oh, yeah, can we make money somehow through the art or through changing things or do you know?” And it just, yeah, it just ends up in a cycle. We’re constantly trying to do the things that energise us, that feel inspiring and bring something to life in this world. And then the flip side of it is that it’s also nice to have nice things—to keep the lights on. There’s just not enough hours in the day.

Lyndon: I went and saw a singer-songwriter last week, Karlo, and rocked up to his gig in Brunswick. And Karlo is

Breallyn: Lovely. He’s been here at Morning Phase Studios doing a little bit of demo work and it’s been great to have him.

Lyndon: And he was saying that just talking about the slog of getting a gig and how many emails and phone calls you’ve gotta make just to get that one gig—and that once you’ve got those gigs, you still need to keep doing that. It’s endless.

Breallyn: That’s right, ’cause they come and they go and then they’re done.

Lyndon: But yeah, today when I was doing some editing and I realised I hadn’t played guitar or done anything really musical for at least 24 hours, I was just thinking about balance. And everything always comes back to balance—understanding what fills you up and what depletes you. For me to join the dots between what I do creatively and where the money comes in, I need to be filled up first. That’s a good point. So if I spend too many days in a row without that need being met, I can’t do the other side of that equation.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: In the example of Karlo, like sending an email and calling someone—it’s not actually that hard to do, but man, it can feel like such—it’s pretty

Breallyn: weighty. You do have, it’s such a difficult thing

Lyndon: to even pick up the phone.

Yeah.

It’s just interesting that while you’re talking about all this stuff, it’s the same sort of feelings coming into me. I just thought it was worth mentioning.

Breallyn: Yeah, and I guess in this topic, we don’t want it to just be like this down vibe of “find a way to pay your rent” because you’ll have to find some way.

Lyndon: Well. When I was talking to Karlo, he put a post up the week before that gig saying he had been thinking about throwing it all in after three years—just so many mixed results and so many ups and downs along the way, and it was really starting to wear on him, understandably. And nothing to do with his talent at all. It’s just the reality of living that life.

Breallyn: Absolutely.

Lyndon: And then the day that he was seriously thinking about quitting, he got an invitation to play at a music festival. And then that bolstered him up again and gave him the encouragement he needed to continue on. And when we were talking after his gig, I said, “That happens all the time.” That’s the life of an artist—ups and downs all the time. And yeah, you need the highs to sustain you through the lows. And I said, “But the question you need to resolve within yourself is: Will you ever stop doing it? Are you prepared to not be a singer or are you ever gonna stop writing songs?”

Yeah, he couldn’t answer yes to that. Of course he wouldn’t. No, that’s true. So once you’ve got to that point, you go, “Actually, this is me. I am gonna be doing this the rest of my life.” It reframes the whole thing for you and you go, “Okay, this is who I am. And this is how it’s gonna be.” And then, guess what, you gotta remind yourself of that every couple of years when you ask, “Why am I doing this again?” It’s because you knew that you were always going to—oh, okay. That’s right. And then you keep going.

Breallyn: Yeah. I think if you know artists as artists, it doesn’t even matter if they’re doing a different job at the time. You know that’s what’s within them. I don’t think I could ever see you as not a…

Lyndon: Musician at some point. I like to think that’s true. But I have to say, when I was doing coffee and when people knew I had a coffee van…

Breallyn: And they saw you as a coffee… and they…

Lyndon: hadn’t seen me for a while, even, and people go, “How’s—” This is a question I got a lot. People hadn’t seen me for a while. “Do you still have the coffee van?” Nothing about my music.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: It was, have you got the coffee van or how’s the coffee van going? Or it was always to do with the coffee and I loved being known as The Caffeinator by my customers. Once I’d finished doing that, ’cause that was the day job, I didn’t wanna be known as The Caffeinator…

Breallyn: Yeah. I didn’t…

Lyndon: wanna be known as the coffee guy.

Breallyn: Yep.

Lyndon: And it really bothered me that what I was really passionate about—and what I’d actually devoted my whole life to for decades before I even decided to run a coffee van in the mornings—wasn’t being acknowledged. It wasn’t being asked about. No one cared. And that was for, a decade. That’s how it felt. And yeah, I don’t know.

Breallyn: Yeah. We’re getting off topic and perhaps we can do an episode on…

Lyndon: Guilty. Put my hand up. I’m…

Breallyn: Guilty forever. We could do an episode on identity, I think, which would be really good. I certainly relate because for so long all I was asked about were the children, ’cause I was a mother—and that’s all people would see. That’s a common thing with mothers, isn’t it?

Lyndon: Especially if they did have a career.

Breallyn: Yeah. And true. We could do an episode on that—I think we should.

Lyndon: I could sit that one out.

Breallyn: Guilty forever. We could talk a lot more about that because it’s integral. Alright, let’s talk about another way of making ends meet, which we are also dabbling in at the moment, and that’s crowdfunding and patronage.

Crowdfunding and Patronage

Lyndon: Yeah. So that’s right. The GoFundMe and the Kickstarters seem to be very project oriented. Yeah. Whereas something like Patreon or Substack for writers is a popular subscription model.

Breallyn: Yep.

Lyndon: And I know with Patreon it was built specifically to connect artists and creative people directly with their fans. It was set up for creatives—it wasn’t set up for any other reason. I think Substack is similar, but predominantly for writers. So anyway, that’s the two different models.

Breallyn: Yeah, that’s right. So essentially there is the project-based approach and then the ongoing support model, which is great. And the point is, it’s not just about getting financial assistance—it’s really about connecting with the people who love your work and getting real-time feedback, bonus content, or involvement in the process.

Lyndon: They love that. It’s a shame when you don’t have the funds to release an album in the best way possible. And sometimes you don’t realize that 200 people might be waiting for you to put that album out.

Breallyn: Yeah. That I’d love to hear. So if someone would pay you $30 for your album—this was before Spotify—and if 500 people, or even a thousand, did so, what if you had that $30,000 to make the album?

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: And that’s something I’ve noticed musicians are still doing today.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: And fans understand it. Your mom, your dad, your cousins might not understand that economy, but fans do. They’re more than happy to help you get something across the line.

Breallyn: Yeah. For the fans, it’s an opportunity to be involved and be part of something—to be part of it. With my help, this artist can get their work out. That’s incredible. It’s so good.

Lyndon: I remember being part of Friends of the Enz, which was the fan club for Split Enz, and just being part of that and getting occasional updates made you feel like an insider—definitely part of that family.

Breallyn: Yeah, absolutely.

Lyndon: That’s great.

Teaching and Mentoring

Breallyn: The next thing we can touch on is teaching and mentoring. There are lots of opportunities for artists to teach—to get an educational position. There’s online classes, private tutoring, guest lectures, and workshops. Some of the benefits of that, like you’re getting a more regular income stream, but you’re also able to inspire and educate others.

And also, if you teach something, it really refines your own skills as soon as you’ve gotta teach somebody something. You have to know your stuff and it makes you feel like you’re more in touch with it, or you’re more on top of it, in certain subject areas. I know there are different times I’ve talked about writing or whatever.

All of a sudden I feel like I’m more of an authority on the subject rather than a perpetual student myself, which I always feel like anyway. But yeah, being a teacher flips you around a little bit.

Lyndon: Yeah, that’s true. And it’s a strange thing to, to on one hand know that you never stop learning, and then on the other hand, to be teaching—it’s something that needs to be reconciled within yourself. I know one of the ways I did it was to try and teach students to never stop learning, to teach themselves rather than just relying on me, to give them as much as they can work on for a week.

It was like, yeah, absolutely—trying to have this much bigger picture, a commitment to the art form. So that was one way that I tried to do it and I think what that also did was highlight for me the students that were more on the same level.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Regardless of skill.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Some of the areas you can focus on teaching would be coaching and consultancy, which might even fit in with some of the freelance work we talked about earlier.

You could develop online courses. There are platforms like Skillshare and Teachable that allow you to reach a global audience and really market yourself in that way. And you can also go local—talk to schools and organizations and offer guest lecturing or one-off workshops.

There’s a bunch of different community groups that can really benefit from their local artists coming in and sharing their skills and work.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: And that’s probably what it is: the life of an artist is continually trying to work out how to exist in the ebb and flow in a way that fulfills you—creatively, spiritually, emotionally, and mentally—so that you’re better off and the world benefits from your contribution. That’s part of the challenge and beauty of a life devoted to creative endeavor.

Breallyn: I think so. And I think that’s part of the nature of being an artist: always looking ahead to the next project, the next idea. And perhaps we’re always hoping that life will be better when we make more money doing what we love, or when we get that ideal job that fits. But let’s just take a moment or, I can just move to the…

Lyndon: Woods in a little log cabin and—oh, that sounds be self-sufficient and, yeah. But as long as I’ve got a really super good internet connection—oh, we should end it there. We’ll leave it there. And thank…

Breallyn: You for listening.

Lyndon: Thank you for listening. You can visit our Patreon page and become a patron at patreon.com/painintheartslife, or you can visit our website at www.painintheartslife.com to learn more about the show.