Introduction to Creative Loneliness and Community in the Arts

This transcript captures a candid conversation between Breallyn and Lyndon as they discuss the challenges and nuances of the creative life. They explore themes of loneliness, the importance of community, and the balance between solitary work and meaningful connection in an artistic career.

Podcast Transcript: Loneliness, Community, and the Creative Life

Story and Equipment Observations

Breallyn: Welcome to Pain In The Arts. Do we still do a little story or something at the start?

Lyndon: Well, technically or historically, whoever is bringing the topic of the day doesn’t have to bring a story.

Breallyn: So today you are bringing us little story.

Lyndon: Yeah. Technically.

Breallyn: A little story,

Lyndon: There’s what, is there something you notice in this room that’s different today than yesterday? I’ll say you are — well, you are warmer now.

Breallyn: I’m warmer now. Okay. I was looking over, my first thought was, “Oh, is there another guitar in here?” No, I was — I’m cuing the guitars. You know that counting. Well, I know that the racks on the right are always full, but sometimes there’s a space on the left. There isn’t now. No. I put, in fact, that entire rack is full plus two other guitars on their own separate stands.

Lyndon: Yeah. Those, yeah. Okay. That’s not it. You’re cold. Cold.

Breallyn: No extra guitars. Great. All I’ll probably do is sell one to —

Lyndon: —pay for this car if we’re gonna get the car. Oh my.

Breallyn: Gosh. Went to look at a car yesterday. Oh dear. Cars, they take a lot of research. Don’t — they’ve been, I’ve probably looked —

Lyndon: —at, I’m gonna say conservatively 50 of this particular model online, and I’ve driven three or four and I’ve looked at five, I think. And I feel like now that I’ve seen a range and I’ve — the one I drove yesterday was clearly the best one. I feel like I don’t need to keep looking. It’s more a decision of whether we get that one, whether we get one or not. But

Breallyn: We’re, trying to find one that is safe and suitable for Birdie and her mobility and her needs and so on, yeah. So it’s now and into the future a little bit. Yeah. It’s led us to a van that

Lyndon: Is, 16 years old and, and is a fuel guzzler, which is, it’s, yeah.

Breallyn: The sort of variables that you don’t start out looking at, but the internal sort of fit-out and everything is the thing that’s got us. Like that’s gotta be correct, and the fuel guzzling

Lyndon: Thing is, it is dependent on how you drive it. Just on paper.

Breallyn: I’m a lead foot,

Lyndon: Well, you can’t be anymore. Anyway, it’s all these things you gotta weigh up and, once I start researching something.

Breallyn: Yeah, you do a bit of a deep dive too. I

Lyndon: Do. ‘Cause I can’t let it up because I feel like I’ve gotta keep running with the knowledge that’s in my head because otherwise I forget. Remember when we built the deck at our last place? And I’d done all that research on how to — not that I was gonna build it myself necessarily — but just on what it took to build a deck and, all the considerations.

And then we got in a guy, a brother of a friend to do it, and he was saying, “Oh, you don’t need to worry about that. Those tolerances you’re talking about, you don’t have to adhere to them. That’s not a requirement by law or by council. That’s just a suggested thing.” So if you — we can get away with Lewis Timber if we do it. Don’t — Yeah, you don’t. This way, if you don’t use 600 mil gaps and you use 900 mil, you use less timber, the job gets done quicker, you’ll save 400 bucks. And I’m like, and I, at the time, I couldn’t remember why. I wanted it to be 600 mil. So there’s just little things like that.

Yeah. Because of the time between the research I did and then actually doing the job. So it’s just, I guess it’s that sort of a thing like once I — and you

Deck Experience and Studio Observations

Breallyn: And how, often did you think about that when you stepped out onto the deck and you could feel a slight — sponginess beneath your feet?

Lyndon: It was like I was stepping onto the deck of the Titanic as it was sinking.

Breallyn: I don’t think anyone else really ever noticed. But you

Lyndon: Notice. Everyone would notice because it’s just that I cared more.

Breallyn: Yeah. And you knew why it — like, why it was a little bit more spongy and movable than had you gone with the shorter distance. I

Lyndon: Mean, who, whoever says when they build a deck, “Hey, do you want it firm underfoot or spongy?” It’s not even a — it’s not that guy, it’s not even an option. No one wants it spongy. Yeah. So I’m sure any, and this is the thing: you’re not walking onto it from, ’cause we had a timber floor in the unit, so you’re not walk, you’re not walking across a spongy timber floor to an equally spongy deck. Like you’re walking on something that’s pretty sore underfoot and then you step out,

Breallyn: Man. And it’s not, I, really never, I noticed I, why are you bringing that up and

Lyndon: Giving me stress?

Breallyn: You’re the one that you’re

Lyndon: You’re so cold with what you’re, I’m,

Breallyn: I’m trying to look what’s different in this studio today. I don’t know. I was in here. I’ve actually, ladies and gentlemen, I’ve been appointed studio manager, which basically means I dust and vacuum in here once every so often. And I’ve been in trouble because I moved a cord. But, yeah, I don’t know. I spent two hours in here. Like, there’s so many things to go around very carefully with a little cloth.

Do I notice anything different from a couple of days ago when I did that? Don’t, I don’t. It’s killing me. Tell me you’re looking at it. What your haircut. Yeah,

I, funnily enough, I noticed it yesterday when you got home, but then, so it’s not like just,

Lyndon: I’ve been watching a lot of Nordic Noir dramas lately and, and when I was out this morning doing my stretches and I saw my new haircut in the reflection of the window, I thought I’ve turned into a Nordic Noir character.

‘Cause my gray hair looked white blonde in the, in the reflection. And

Breallyn: But you weren’t against a white mountain. You were in our backyard. Yeah.

Lyndon: I know, but I just thought

Breallyn: With it’s parched grass,

Lyndon: I’ve turned into Bjorn.

Breallyn: One of our Carer’s laughs heartily every time she walks in and Lyndon’s watching a new Nordic Noir. She’s 20 and she cannot understand how you’d ever get into such a,

Lyndon: I was watching The Bridge yesterday and it’s great because it’s, the bridge between Sweden and Denmark. So like I’ve got two languages happening.

Breallyn: Wow. And what reading the subtitles in English of both is, yeah. Somehow a challenge. Well,

Lyndon: That’s how I, that’s how I like to read my books is subtitles on SBS.

Breallyn: No wonder our carer laughs or our daughter’s carer, I should say. We’re not just having someone coming around looking after us, seeing if we’re all right. We might need it.

Lyndon: I wouldn’t mind someone just coming and making sure I’m okay. I could have a massive whinge to them. Go on. I’m not okay. Yohannes doesn’t know the trouble he is walking into. There’s a blizzard coming,

Podcast Intro and Lunchtime Banter

[Long pause]

Welcome to Pain in the Arts, the podcast where the pursuit of meaningful art meets the unpredictable demands of real life.

Breallyn: Good afternoon. I’m Bri Ellen.

Lyndon: And I am Lyndon. It

Breallyn: May not be afternoon where you are, but hello. Greeting. It’s afternoon here and it’s,

Lyndon: I reckon it’s about lunchtime.

Breallyn: It is. It’s 2:00 PM. Let’s go eat.

Lyndon: Well, we can’t go eat. We’ve got a podcast. We’re on the mics for the next hour. That’s true. And we’ll eat after that.

Breallyn: Lunch later.

Lyndon: Lunch later.

Breallyn: Dear.

Deep Dive: Community, Isolation, and the Artistic Experience

All right, let’s talk about our topic for today. It is my turn to bring a topic and today we are gonna talk about community.

Lyndon: Yeah,

Breallyn: Community. Okay. And the reason why is because I think, well, we’re all here. We’re living here on a big blue ball hurdling through space. And it is nice to feel like if you were flung off that someone would notice. Yeah, I think community among artists is something worth talking about. And I think that loneliness and isolation can be quite persistent in artists and in artistic pursuits, especially when you’re trying to juggle that with work or you’re trying to make a living from art and so on. It can be really quite isolating. We’ve certainly experienced it and we’ve watched friends experience it too. And

Lyndon: Why, is that though? I suppose you’re gonna get into that. I guess why — can I, that’s why we’re gonna chat about it for the next half hour, but, yeah.

Breallyn: Yeah, it’s fair enough. Yeah, it does happen and I guess it happens. Sometimes it can be from time to time. Sometimes it can be a persistent thing. Sometimes it can be like according to what’s happening in your career, if you’re feeling a bit stagnant or frustrated or not having breakthroughs and stuff, it can be more isolating. But what I really, when I was thinking about this, what sort of fascinates me is I think, this living at extremes that I see a lot of our artistic friends doing so on, on one hand, many of them seem to be introverts, and yet the very sort of nature of art, creating something is that you are often putting your most, your dearest sort of ideas or your most vulnerable parts of yourself into some form of art or some kind of product and then you are putting it out for everybody to see. It’s obviously a well recognized thing that surrounding yourself with a good community is a good thing, psychologically speaking, mental health speaking and just from a like a support network or safety net perspective.

Lyndon: Is it, is that just the feeling more like that’s projection? Is it feeling like misunderstood?

Breallyn: I think so, yeah.

Lyndon: It’s not, it’s not the truth. I don’t think it’s their truth really.

Breallyn: Yeah. Probably not. Probably not. Yeah. But, yeah, just the — I don’t know, like what, what is going on there? That there is this very ambivalent relationship to other people and to community and to feeling like you’re fitting in. What’s your experience been?

Lyndon: My experience. Oh, I don’t ever feel like I’ve fit in anywhere.

Breallyn: Not a fitter in, no,

Lyndon: I never felt like I fit in at school. And some of that feeling then leads you to think that — not think that you’re special, but you just notice that you’re different. So special in that way. And it’s still a revelation now that I’m in my mid to late thirties. I like, I understand that we don’t all think the same and that I always say there’s two sides to every story. Yours, mine, and the truth. That’s three. So there you go. Thanks for that. Thanks for that maths teacher. There’s three sides to every story. That’s what I say. Yours, mine, and the truth. So like I get that. We’ve all got opinions and we all see the world differently. However, I still am really surprised when I’ll just recognize something or I’ll note something like verbally and I’ll get strange looks like, “Who thinks like that? Or why would you even nearly?” And I just think, “Oh,” so even now in certain circles, I don’t fit in. And I think that leads to, at the moment, I really wanna get, like, socially be hanging more with my kind of artistic people, and it’s gonna take a huge effort for me to get out of the house to do it. But I really, I’m feeling that sort of pull stronger now than I have for a long time. And I think partly that’s because there’s the space for it. I’m gonna be tired. I just think, you get to, you get to this age and, it, it is more of an effort to get in the car and go see, go

Breallyn: Anywhere.

Lyndon: A band, we’ll go anywhere really. Yeah, we like our comforts of home and things like that. It’s, I was gonna say it’s sad but true. It’s not sad. It’s actually quite nice, to enjoy the simple things in life and, yeah, you don’t need it. But I am feeling that, I really wanna get around people

Yeah. So yeah, I’ve never — what was your question? If I’ve experienced, I’ve gone off on a tangent.

Breallyn: That’s okay. That’s why we’re here. That’s why we have a podcast.

Lyndon: But yeah, I’ve never felt like I fit in and, yeah. That’s normal. Yeah, it is interesting,

Breallyn: Isn’t it, that sort of, like you’re saying, trying to find your little group of people or your people that think like you and, yeah, maybe there’s something in that, like even when you are surrounded by other artists and so on, it just feels super rare to find other people that are similar.

It’s a very strange thing and I think there’s some reasons why artistic people find that hard to find a community, and space is one of them, like in terms of the time literally to do anything. But also just the mental space. I think, at different times when you’re feeling isolated, it’s hard to get out and actually do something about it. It’s almost like it is, like it perpetuates itself. So having to make an effort to do something that should be fun or that connections that should give you some more energy and yet it just feels like it’s just draining.

Socializing and Personal Reflections on Isolation

Lyndon: Yeah, ’cause I would like to have people coming over, it’s not obviously that the studio’s in our home, but I would love people to just be coming over here, hanging and playing and, I could put a mic in front of them and we could record something and do you know what I mean? And have that kind of vibe and it’s well that doesn’t just happen. How do I make that happen? If I put an ad in the paper, I’m not gonna get that.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: That’s not the way to do it.

Breallyn: And then people will turn up and you’ll be like, “I just can’t wait for them to leave.” Can’t leave. It’s

Lyndon: Well, and yeah, it needs to be like that sort of stuff comes through, like genuine friendships through connectedness and through shared experience. And, it would be an extension of hanging out. It’s like instead of just hanging out and having a cup of coffee, it’s like musos are hanging out. So what do you do? Yeah. It’s like when even sometimes when we are talking, I just pick up a guitar and

Breallyn: Yep. Try not to

Lyndon: Have it interfere too much with the conversation. But so I would love that to happen here—to just be a bit of an open door in a sense. But, yeah, it’s, wow, I have, has too much time got away from me and that I haven’t cultivated enough of those friendships or whatever. I don’t really know. I

Breallyn: Don’t know. I think that specific thing is more about, I don’t know, people

Lyndon: Just don’t, you can say it. People don’t like me.

Breallyn: No, not at all.

Lyndon: I repel people.

Breallyn: Not at all. I think there’d be heaps of people who would love to come and just hang out, but it’s, I think, just the functions of life get in the way of that sort of thing. We’re not 19 anymore and trying to just hang out with friends. Yeah.

Yeah. Interestingly, we’ve got a son who’s a musician and he’s at that stage — just wanting to be with his band mates and play and rehearse and hang out and stuff. So that would happen more in a band,

Lyndon: Yeah. And when there’s, if they’re, like tonight they’re sharing, not sharing the stage, but there’s two other acts, I think, that are playing before them. Yeah. You’re hanging out with the other band members. Yeah, of the other bands. That’s true. Yeah. That mix you’re mixing with, it’s definitely

Breallyn: A community in that mix.

Reflections on Solo Work and the Role of Community

Lyndon: Some of the other fans and, so yeah, absolutely. That’s how it’s done. When I was doing my solo original stuff, it still felt to me like I was pushing shit uphill, as in, that side of it was an effort and I never really felt like I was in that community. And

Breallyn: That is interesting. It is interesting. And I wonder too about, this feels like maybe it’s Australia, it feels like some division sometimes. It’s like you’re competing with everybody else all the time. I remember a friend of ours who’s a visual artist went to New York and she said she couldn’t believe it. That, every time she went to a party or a gallery opening or just anything, anyone she knew would say to everyone else around her, “Oh, hey, meet my friend. She does this amazing stuff. Her work’s great. You should really see her exhibition, this, that, and the other.” And they talk her up.

And I think that most of the artists that we’ve met, well, I can’t even think of any that we have met that aren’t like this, but are really wonderful people and, finding that tribe — that those like-minded people — is really important and making those connections. I just, yeah, I think there’s just so many times that artists I know have struggled or you’ll catch up with somebody and they’ll be a little bit apologetic that they haven’t seen you or we haven’t caught up and they’re not feeling great about what’s going on in their career. But you start to talk about it and share notes and then that like mutual encouragement does come and it’s so good when you actually are connecting with somebody who gets it, I think. But yeah, it can be hard to step out and do that sometimes.

Anecdotes and Lessons from the Past

Lyndon: Yeah. Can I just bring this back to me for a second? Always. Not always, but, I heard Jason Alexander

Speaker: On a

Lyndon: Podcast yesterday, so Jason Alexander, for people that don’t know, people that are listening to this in 2045 or something, a little bit

Breallyn: Younger than our vintage,

Lyndon: He was George on Seinfeld.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: And he was saying how he, when he was studying acting, he really wanted to be. Like, a ham Hamlet, or, basically one of those who’s another Shakespeare character of, of note, I’m gonna say Hamlet. Well, Hamlet’s

Breallyn: Like traditionally the, hardest role or whatever. And

Lyndon: So he saw himself as that kind of an actor and his, one of his lecturers or whoever pulled him aside and told him how great he was and said, “You will never be Hamlet.”

Speaker: Oh, wow. And,

Lyndon: And basically said, “Look at you, you are,” mentioned his physique, said he was boarding young. You should get into comedy.

Breallyn: Wow.

Lyndon: And, I was driving along listening to that, and I thought, you know what? Something — I wouldn’t say this is a regret of mine. It’s more of an acknowledgement, I think, that I never, like after school, I never did any tertiary study in the arts or in anything actually. So I didn’t have, I didn’t have really anyone that could steer me in any particular direction. So any decision I made was my own

Of what I thought was the next thing that I needed to do. And it was, always just felt like I was zigzagging. Yeah. Actually, I do remember meeting with, I, I can’t remember his name, but he ran a record label in, in Melbourne and he’d heard my stuff and we went out and had lunch. And he’s given me a piece of advice that I’ve always remembered. And he was saying that for me, one of the most important things I should remember when I go out and I play solo is groove and to make groove a focal point of what I did in terms of just not forgetting about it because the groove is, is the bridge between what I was playing and the audience. Which was interesting advice. Yeah.

The Value of Feedback and Community Connections

Breallyn: So maybe that’s something that is really important about community is that, knowledgeable feedback, ’cause you can have people come to your gigs or, even, family and friends who will be like, “Oh, that was amazing. I loved every part of it.” Yeah. Yeah. And that’s wonderful to hear. And then if you have somebody in the industry or someone that has some specific advice,

Yeah, that’s like invaluable if they can give that and you can receive that.

Lyndon: And also if you’ve studied at College of the Arts or Box Hill or wherever else we might have here in Melbourne, you’ve got a cohort, you’ve got that community as well. They all go out and get their different jobs and then they can recommend you and, so there is that extension too of just the hardcore sort of learning and hearing — often those teachers are players themselves or actors themselves — and also when I was saying before that I never felt like I was part of a scene in particular.

Speaker: Yeah.

Music, Rehearsal, and Personal Anecdotes

Lyndon: A big part of my live playing since the age of 13, easily right up until, well, a decade ago, say, was being a church musician.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Okay. That’s interesting. So when I say I couldn’t, I didn’t have a community, I did. It was being a church musician that can take all kinds of various shapes and forms and there’s always that tension between why you’re doing it and the purpose, and how professional are you allowed to be in that environment. Because suddenly, if it’s just about — then your heart might not be in the right. You know what I mean? Yes. All these sorts of things that you don’t deal with if you are not on a church platform. Yeah. And so your community in that sense as a musician, the people that you’re sharing the stage with — some of them might be great musicians in their own right — but it’s a completely different and foreign environment to what’s happening in the clubs and the pubs and the bars that meanwhile all your other peers, if you like, are cutting their teeth in. Yeah. And so I think I missed a lot of that because I wasn’t available for it.

Breallyn: Oh, wow. Yeah. Do you know what I mean?

Lyndon: And I, it isn’t this interesting, I only had that realization a couple of months ago. I was like, “Oh,”

Breallyn: Because you were playing all the time. But it was because I was trying to work out — it was like a mix between Sunday morning and Saturday at night. Yeah.

Lyndon: Yeah. Saturday night, Sunday morning. Plus you’ve got all the other activities that go around — rehearsals, conferences and stuff. Yeah. All kinds of different things so you’re really trying to — I would’ve been, especially when I released those couple of early albums, you’re trying to work out all of that stuff around your commitments to the church.

Breallyn: Which community in itself is like a different one than what we are talking about today because it’s all centered around a different thing, but, yeah.

Yeah. But that was, yeah. The focus is different. Yeah.

Lyndon: Yeah. I’m not begrudging that it was more of a realization of going, “Oh, okay, I have been playing every weekend for my entire life, but I haven’t been doing that with a group of people that are now, onto doing their like fifth album or they’ve been rubbing shoulders with other iconic Aussies and all that sort of stuff.” I just haven’t moved in those circles. So to be fair, when we’re talking about community and me saying I’ve always felt like an outsider — and which is true, even in the church, I felt like an outsider, yeah — for obvious reasons, I think a lot of that can be attributed to, I didn’t make myself available. And so now the thought of actually trying to break into it is even worse, I think, than being a mature-age student at uni, because I think, what do I do? I just go, along and go, “Oh, hi.”

Breallyn: Wow. We are more isolated than I gave us credit for when I was preparing this.

Community Building and Invitation

Lyndon: Well, I’ve done a lot of thinking about this because it’s, like I said earlier, I would love this space to be available for people to come and hang. And I’m like, “Why? Why don’t I have people that can just come and hang?” And it’s, well, well, you

Breallyn: Actually, probably do have heaps, but yeah, like I know there’s lots of people that you know that would love to come over and hang here.

Lyndon: Oh, well you’ll have to point them out. I’ll remind you them out. I remind them.

Breallyn: Yeah. I won’t name them on now.

Lyndon: They’re not here though, are they? So not from my point of view, I’m not gonna send an invitation.

Breallyn: From my point of view, having a mature-age student — that’s what you’ve gotta get over at day one. You just, you gotta show up and just be there, and deal with yourself. I think, yeah, I think building community’s always about taking a bit of a risk, to go, “Oh, could go out to this thing, this event, this book club, whatever it is.” And it might be horrible. I might feel just so self-conscious and horrible and not wanna ever go back. But I’ll never know if I don’t go; I should follow that person up or I should just reach out and get in touch with such and such. Because, yeah, I think it really is important and I think you’ve just demonstrated, even just talking about how you’re feeling, like you’ve never fit in, and still have that persistent feeling after decades in the industry pretty much as a working musician. I don’t know. I think that’s a bit of an insecurity that might be not exactly true, or it might just be something that artistic people tend to be so hard on themselves and feel like they’re outsiders all of the time and no one quite gets them and they don’t ever quite fit in, I guess, because there’s so much individuality. But, my inclination, ’cause I always care very much about people and want the best for people, is to be saying, “Get out there and make those connections and give it a try. Don’t let more time pass without doing something about it.” So is this

Lyndon: A good time to tell you that I won’t be home tonight?

Breallyn: Yeah. But no, I did see you going out to a gig. Good. Going out to, a gig. Yeah.

Lyndon: It’s an early gig.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: And then I was thinking of top and tailing that to go and see our son’s show, but I think I’ll miss it, I’d have to, I’d have to go to one and then leave early to

Breallyn: See him.

Yeah. Well

Lyndon: Not leave early, but leave without the socializing aspect of it.

Breallyn: So once that gig’s finished, definitely socialize, considering we’re talking about community today. But the other thing is that’ll give our son time to socialize as well. And then you can pick him up in all of his drums because,

Speaker: Oh, I

Breallyn: Hadn’t thought — oh no, he had to have a poor band mate come and pick them up last night so they can get, I’m sorry, won’t be

Lyndon: Picking him up.

Lyndon: His what? His gig is gonna finish so late. He

Breallyn: Won’t finish that later.

Lyndon: Yeah, they’re the headline and it’ll be late. Oh, what are you going to, and then he’s got all his socializing to do. Yeah, well

Breallyn: That’s what I’m saying. What, but what are you going to — an old folky gig that finishes at eight? If they talk about

Lyndon: The folk scene like that.

Breallyn: I guess the folk scene’s always gonna not be as hardcore as the punk scene.

Lyndon: I shall be enjoying the performances with a gin and tonic,

Breallyn: Right?

Lyndon: And then I shall be putting on my smoking jacket and having a cigar and your slippers. I don’t know. No idea. I don’t wanna imagine what it’ll be like because I have a little bit of anxiety about going and sitting there on my own having to drum up conversation and, and then have to listen to words come outta my own head and go, “Oh, what did I just say that for?” Maybe I’ll stay home. Oh my gosh. This is what’s good about footy season. Hard, like once the footy season’s on, you just go, “I’m either going through the footy or I’m staying home and watching it on TV.”

Reflections on Aging and Artistic Identity

Breallyn: Okay. No, this is what’s hard about being an artistic person, and living with one, is that, that you are, well, you’re actually past your mid to late thirties. You’re quite a big grown man now, and you should be able to go out and just go out.

Lyndon: I know. I’m sure I’ll enjoy it when I’m there. Wow, I don’t need to, I don’t need a community to bolster me up when I’ve got Michael, David Mayo, who is, have you seen this guy on Instagram? Hold him up to you so you can see him? No,

Speaker: I don’t think so. He’s,

Lyndon: He does some, he’s an, I’m gonna say oil painter, I’m not a hundred percent sure, but he’s painting on canvas, these big, kind of colorful works and always talking about what it is to be an artist and about how important it is for us to support one another. And, yeah, he’s got a lot of good things to say, often save his reels. But yeah, no, just being a bit facetious, clearly he’s all for going out and

On Creative Work and Vulnerability

Breallyn: Yeah. Well, that’s right. Finding your people. I think that is important, getting out and I’m speaking to myself as much as you at this point, or any of our listeners, is to find some things. I’m a writer. We don’t collaborate much. We don’t, we sit in our rooms and we write, I was

Lyndon: Thinking about that earlier, like Athia or someone, it’s like they’re just spending all their time — yeah — on their own happily.

Breallyn: Yeah. Doing the actual work. Yeah. But then, that outside benefit to, and it feels horrible because then you feel like, “Oh, now I’ve got to go and take my work around and get people to appreciate it.” That feels awful. But I think connection, apart from that or alongside of that, is important to seek. Yeah, there’s always things, there’s gigs to go to, there’s galleries, there’s book lunches, book clubs. So there’s always something. If you’re an artist who’s listening, go do something this weekend. The other thing is it’s quite hard to connect sometimes with non-artistic people. There’s, that’s a whole different sort of, a whole different beast, really.

Challenges in Non-Artistic Social Settings

Lyndon: What do you mean?

Breallyn: Well, when you’re spending a lot of time doing your own thing and then you go to, I don’t know, a family event or some other thing that you’re chatting to people, you’re making small talk, you’re meeting new people, and they’re just, from different worlds, that can be a whole different thing. Something I’ve noticed,

Lyndon: I, and this is a generalization, but I think it’s true, is that in those circumstances, artists or artistic people either aren’t good at small talk or they just downright don’t like it and don’t wanna — they’d much rather just find a person and sit in the corner and just talk to them for the entire time. Yeah. And then leave without being noticed. Isn’t that kind of funny?

Breallyn: Yeah. But that can be hard and you can feel put on the spot of, “Oh, well, what do you do? What are you working on? What, you know?” Oh. And the sort of the economic equation. And then suddenly that your value is, as you’re placed in the world, the value of what you do comes down to whether it can support you. Yeah, which it’s, which. Yeah. It’s so interesting because you’re like, I always think, look back on famous artists that we all admire and that are in all the textbooks and sometimes they’re noted for that one work.

Speaker: Yeah.

Lyndon: Like one or two pieces of work that they did and apparently they just did that in isolation without years of

Breallyn: Yeah. Trouble

Lyndon: And toil and

Breallyn: Yep. Developing the, thing, the craft, the, yeah. It’s,

Lyndon: It’s, there’s, yeah. And I’m always just fascinated when people don’t apply the same KPIs, they don’t apply the same sort of logic, or the same sort of

Speaker: Yeah.

Lyndon: Yeah. So you’re right. In those situations it can be a bit

Breallyn: Yeah. And that’s, that could feel, it really

Lyndon: Diminishes you and makes you feel small.

Breallyn: Totally.

Lyndon: Even though when people are asking, they’re genuinely interested, but it’s like you’re saying you’re just on a different wavelength. It really is. Never the twain shall meet.

Breallyn: Maybe not. Yeah. It’s funny how sort of small it can make you feel all of a sudden, if you are talking to other artistic people, you can be, yeah. The conversation’s completely different. And then you’ll just talk to people who have other, real jobs and it’ll suddenly feel, yeah.

On Business vs. Creative Work

Yeah, you are being weighed up. I find that I’ll always just be talking about my business then, which is where I write copy for, yeah, other businesses and, yeah. And organizations and so on will talk about, “Oh yeah, I’ve just done a website for a law firm and now I’m working on a thing for a chiropractor or whatever it is.” Yeah. Yeah. Rather than go, “Oh, I’m starting to get into my novel. You wouldn’t believe the character development I’ve done this week.” Or, “I can look,” which is actually what you

Lyndon: Should be talking about. Yeah. Because, but it just feels

Breallyn: So yeah, undervalued in those circles. Like just not understood and not, and also it feels like it’s too private. It’s too important to be putting up to anybody who would be thinking about judging it or weighing it up economically like that. Yeah. I guess that’s the awkwardness that comes in.

On Preparation and Rehearsal

Lyndon: Yeah, no, it’s, I know for me, I need to be better rehearsed with the sort of things I can say in that situation, ’cause otherwise I’ll do the same thing as you, but I’d much rather be able to talk about something I’m working on, that I’m passionate about, and that, yeah, I guess there’s that danger where you don’t want it to get turned into a different conversation.

Breallyn: Oh, yeah, that’s true. I know. That’s the problem project and, yeah. Then you

Yeah.

On Busy Schedules and Daily Work

Lyndon: It’s just easier to say, “Oh yeah, I’m super busy.” Yeah. Doing copy for websites and, yeah. You’ll recognize these things. If I talk about, “I’ve done a website for a hairdresser. Oh yeah, I understand hairdressing. Oh.” And I’ve done a website for lawyers. Oh yeah, I understand. Lawyers. Yeah. It’s different if you’re talking about the human condition and how you’re trying to translate that through melody.

Breallyn: Absolutely. And that

Lyndon: You’ve spent a week doing that and other related activities. Oh, wow. We’re so awkward. Yeah. Oh dear. But I know, was it Tommy Emanuel? He said he doesn’t rehearse. He just makes sure he knows his own songs really well, so he always, yeah. Well, so he’s always, I guess, rehearsing his own stuff. He knows it. So at the drop of a hat anywhere, anytime he can just play one of his songs. Yeah. And that’s something that I need to learn to do to be able to go, “Well, here’s something I wrote.”

Breallyn: Yeah. And just, out and here’s

Lyndon: The thing I’ve been working on, da dah. Just play it out. And, but it’s,

Breallyn: Here’s my pocket guitar. Let me, yeah. You ask how my work’s going. Let me play. But the,

Lyndon: The,

Thinking is, in terms of what you’re trying to put out into the world, and, if you’re trying to connect with people and trying to make a connection on, like I said before, the human condition or, saying, “Hey, I value artistic endeavor and I value what I’m contributing to it,” then the best way in social situations is to give people a taste of that. So if you can give them a taste of it by playing it on your guitar, great. If you can give them a taste of it by talking a bit about your novel then that’s good. We shouldn’t be hiding it just because of where the conversation might get pushed or because there might be a lack of understanding from someone who clearly loves going to the movies. Probably loves reading.

Brealyn: Yep.

Lyndon: Probably will talk about what a genius Hans Zimmer is. Or maybe not. Maybe they’ll just say how great the music for June was. They loved the Bob Dylan movie, whatever. Yeah. It

Breallyn: Definitely got a favorite song and something that changed their life when they were a teenager and all that kind of thing.

Lyndon: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. They found their talents is accounting and bookkeeping and I take my hat off ’cause we can’t figure out our books, but so we don’t need to, we don’t have to reduce ourselves. Sometimes we’re doing it to protect ourselves, I think. Yeah, I think so. And there is that line, like you can’t always be — I don’t wanna use the word advocate, see, that’s the thing, it’s not our job as an artist or as a musician or as a writer. It’s not up to us what someone does with the art. We just have to be as honest as we can when we are creating it.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: And then hand it over. That’s right. To people to interpret it and use it as they will. So it is a bit — it’s normal for us to feel awkward about going, “Oh, I’ve gotta, in this social situation, I must advocate and speak up for the arts,” so that we are not just talking about football or politics or whatever else is the topic of the day, when really we know that we’re just creating something that is true for us, that hopefully is, is from an experience that other people would feel or recognize or it might be a shared experience, and then they interpret that through their own lens as they will. It’s not really up for us to be telling them how to think, how to feel, or to advocate for art. We’re just artists.

Speaker: Yeah.

Lyndon: So that’s true. Yeah. It’s just, it is, it’s a bit of an odd one. I don’t know. Did you, well, did you have some sort of, wisdom?

Breallyn: Well, I think we’ve just spoken for quite a while about how awkward we feel and how isolated, and yet we’re also saying community’s really good and important. And it is, but I don’t know. I think, part of us actually, part of us creating this podcast is to build community and to reach people a little bit further and by us chatting about our experiences and bringing a topic to talk about, we hope that it is helping other artists to feel a little less isolated. Maybe you can,

Lyndon: I was talking to someone relatable in some ways a couple of days ago, and they were like, “How come you’re not using social media to promote what you’re doing?” and it is, it feels strange. It does feel a bit risky. Yeah. I said, “Yeah, it was a conscious decision. I said, we’re not trying to get a million followers. We’re just trying to find our people.”

Speaker: Yeah.

Lyndon: And, yeah, you could do it through social media, but it’s more like standing at the side of the road with a megaphone, just shouting at all the cars as they drive by. Yeah. That’s what’s, that’s the way that works. I don’t feel like it’s really set up in a way that really helps creative people — like that’s not the purpose of it. Yeah. And so we’ve just looked at other ways of doing it. So yeah, community is something that’s important to us. But, the community for us, it might be 50 people, it might be a hundred, it might be 500 — who knows. But it’s not gonna be 2.5 million followers.

Closing Remarks and Call to Action

Breallyn: Yeah. So get on, get onto our Patreon.

Yeah. Get onto our Patreon. You can join for free and just hang out with other people like, like us and sounds like there’s an open invitation for musos to come here, to Morning Phase Studios and yeah. Just hang out, do some things. And if you want to have a coffee and talk about books, I’m your girl, so we can do that.

Lyndon: Yeah. You’re not making the coffee though.

Breallyn: No, we’re meeting in a cafe. Oh, okay. Yeah, that sounds good. Yeah. Book club. Maybe I should. Yeah, we talked about that. Maybe I’ll start a book club at some point. Start a book club. Why not? Well, that’s right. Book clubs. Book launches. It’d be good to go to. Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t, I think that this won’t be the only time we talk about community and the struggles that artistic people have or just what we are experiencing. But yes, one thing we haven’t mentioned is, maybe we feel particularly like we’ve gone through periods of isolation — being special-needs parents is very isolating in that experience — so we’ve had that to contend with, as well as trying to somehow keep the threads of our careers going.

Lyndon: I was, and it’s

Breallyn: Been a tough journey. That’s

Lyndon: True. I was at a winery or a vineyard last weekend doing a gig, and one of the owners there, she was talking to me afterwards and she said that at Christmas time, her uncle would pass a hat around and get everyone to write down one of their concerns or worries or whatever that they had. It might’ve been metaphorical as in they didn’t actually do it, but this is what he said: if we all broke down our problems and put ’em in a hat, and then you had to pick a problem out. He goes, “You’d pick your own out.”

Speaker: Oh, wow.

Lyndon: Yeah. Which is quite wise, isn’t it?

Speaker: And

Lyndon: It’s just the way of going, you know what, everyone’s got their thing. Yeah. Everyone’s got their cross to bear and, yeah. So I thought that was, it was quite a powerful statement. And, one that I think Uncle Pappy would agree with.

Breallyn: Oh, you and your Uncle Pappy. Yeah. On Instagram. I’m gonna leave it at that. Go and follow him.

Well, all — well, that’s it.

We’ll leave it there for this week. Yeah. We hope you all find connection and meaningful community and reach out to us; leave us a comment or

Lyndon: Go leave us a review. Leave us a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts. That would help. That would help. Yeah, that would help. Four and a half is probably okay — five.

Breallyn: That’ll help other artists find us and connect, hopefully, with you and us.

Lyndon: Thank you for listening. You can visit our Patreon page and become a patron at patreon.com/painintheartslife. Or you can visit our website if you wanna find out a bit more about the show. And there’s some articles and blogs up there at www.painintheartslife.com. Yeah. What else do we say? Brea? I

Breallyn: Think that’s about it. I don’t know. What else do we say? I think we’ve done it all.

Lyndon: True. We’ll see you next week.

Breallyn: Bye.