July 1, 2025 · Episode 27
45 Min, 39 Sec 

Summary

What does it really take to master your passion—and is it worth it? Breallyn and Lyndon dive into the obsession, transformation, and long-haul grit behind creative mastery. With a little help from RZA, they explore how mastering one passion sparks others—and how the journey reshapes who you become. Plus there’s the usual detours and chats about parenting pit-falls, dentistry and adventures in DIY acupuncture. 

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Transcript

Lyndon: I haven’t woken up yet.

Breallyn: And yet you’ve been up walking around for a couple of hours.

Lyndon: I know.

Breallyn: Zombie. Apocalypse.

Lyndon: It’s a good trick.

Breallyn: Good to see you moving and simulating wakefulness.

Lyndon: Simulating life.

Breallyn: Can you pass on those skills to our son? He hasn’t quite managed that one yet.

Lyndon: Has he left for school?

Breallyn: No.

Lyndon: He hasn’t. Is he up?

Breallyn: Nope.

Lyndon: Wow. This will be…

Breallyn: Doona day today.

Lyndon: This will be good for the… pfft, Doona day! This will be good for the time capsule, won’t it?

Breallyn: When we look back and wonder why I aged a decade in a year, this will be it.

Lyndon: I have no words.

Breallyn: It is a rainy all day in Melbourne. It’s the sort of weather that makes all the grey nomads pack up the caravans and head north, let’s just say.

Lyndon: Yeah. Oh, that’s true.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Do you reckon we’ll ever be grey nomads?

Breallyn: We are already grey. Yeah.

Lyndon: But the emphasis on the nomadic part.

Breallyn: Yeah, I don’t know. I can’t picture it. I can barely see beyond today, to be honest. Yeah.

Lyndon: Okay. This is such an empowering start.

Breallyn: Yeah, it is.

Lyndon: I think I need a massage, a professional massage. Did I tell you the time I got acupuncture from Jamie Jardine, the guitarist for Bjorn Again?

Breallyn: Yes.

Lyndon: Super nice guy.

Breallyn: Do you know Jamie? Yeah. Yeah.

Lyndon: He was teaching himself at the time, or he at least had the manual or the…

Breallyn: So he’d bought some needles off eBay.

Lyndon: He at least had a,

Breallyn: Like a diagram of where to stick things?

Lyndon: I don’t know. He had a book open. It was like the, it was like the acupuncture bible. I just remember him like slowly moving around. I swear I could occasionally hear a “hmm”, and he’d be holding the Bible in one hand and the pins in the other. I think at some point he’s, “Do you, would you like me to?” I can’t remember what he said, “Would you like me to stick some in your toes or in your eyelids or something?” I was like, “Yeah, maybe not neither. Or maybe not today.”

That was so long ago. And it’s good to see he’s still, still practicing in the expert sense of the word?

Breallyn: As in acupuncture or…?

Lyndon: Yeah, acupuncture.

Breallyn: Okay. Not guitar, for…

Lyndon: I don’t know. I don’t know. But I guess they’re still playing. I don’t really know.

Breallyn: I think our kids went to the same kinder as his.

Lyndon: Yeah. Speaking of teeth, yesterday, I had a dental emergency.

Breallyn: And, can I describe it from my point of view? I’m in the bathroom, and you walk in, your hair is everywhere. You look like a mad professor. Your eyes are squinty. You’ve got your fingers pinched together, holding something, and then you just go close to the mirror and peer into it and there’s a big chip in the front of your tooth and then you look into your fingers and there’s fragments of said tooth.

And none of that looked great from my point of view, I’ve gotta say.

Lyndon: Yeah, it wasn’t really fragments of tooth. It was the previous cosmetic filling, they call ’em filling, although I would’ve thought the more appropriate word was hanger-onner, because it’s like if you chip your front tooth, they’ve gotta add to it. I don’t know, I just didn’t think it was a filling in. It’s kind of like it’s filling…

Breallyn: Space.

Lyndon: But it’s filling space. Yeah.

Breallyn: Yeah, it doesn’t have anything around it.

Lyndon: Yeah.

Breallyn: So twice the same spot.

Lyndon: Yeah. By biting my nail.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Apparently. And I suppose your nail is like bone. So I avoid…

Breallyn: What was…

Lyndon: Your nails are like, aren’t they?

Breallyn: I don’t think they’re made of bones.

Lyndon: I think they might be.

Breallyn: Oh my Lord! Anatomy lessons.

Lyndon: Hard as nails, brittle as bones.

Breallyn: It’s not those sort of nails.

Lyndon: It’s your teeth that are bones. Put it this way, my fingernail defeated my tooth, well, defeated my filling.

Breallyn: Your hanger-onner.

Lyndon: But I was gonna call this episode Unseen.

Breallyn: Unlike your front tooth.

Lyndon: When I came home yesterday and I said, “Dadda! Check out my…”

Breallyn: “Hey, check out…”

Lyndon: My new tooth. Yeah. “And did I say, I’m a new man?” And what did you say?

Breallyn: Did you say that?

Lyndon: Probably… I don’t know. I don’t. Something about that. Remember you were…

Breallyn: Saying that? I don’t know. What did I say? I didn’t, I don’t remember. Probably said, “Nice.”

The Unnoticed Haircut

Lyndon: So I had that little emergency. Then I immediately called the dentist and they were able to fit me in a couple hours later. So that was good. I did that, walked up the street, got a haircut.

Breallyn: What? No, you didn’t.

Lyndon: Look at you. I got a haircut.

Breallyn: Did you?

Lyndon: This is what I mean. Unbelievable. How long’s it been?

Breallyn: Which one did they cut?

Lyndon: I had almost three inches of hair cut off my head. And not only did you not say anything, you still don’t think I’ve had a haircut and you’re looking right at me.

Breallyn: It looks the same as it did.

Lyndon: It does not.

Breallyn: Maybe it just…

Lyndon: After all that hoo-ha with… Yeah. So after all that hoo-ha… With our son getting his million-dollar haircut in the city and… With his backstory of having a mate cut it for six years and consistently giving him haircuts that he was not happy about. Yeah. And he got home and got all the praise and adoration. I get home. Nothing.

Breallyn: I didn’t notice, and I don’t know, maybe it’s just ’cause the wind had blown it askew again, is it styled at all or is it just they’ve taken a little bit of length off?

Lyndon: Unbelievable.

Breallyn: I don’t know what to say. It just looks the same. Yeah. Yeah.

Lyndon: Unbelievable.

Breallyn: Now you mention it, I suppose it’s shorter. Yeah. Yeah.

Lyndon: It’s changed my whole face shape. Oh my gosh. I literally was in there and she’s like, “How do you want it cut?” And I’m like, “Yeah, take a fair bit of length off.” I said, “I just wanna walk out of here looking distinguished.” And then looked down and I was wearing pretty much what I’m wearing right now, a tracksuit.

And I had my Reeboks on and my retro Reeboks, but my tracksuit pants were black. And I knew this when I left home, my socks were blue, so it really looked like I wasn’t taking care of myself. And there I was saying, “Yeah, I wanna look distinguished.”

Breallyn: She’s ‘mission impossible.’

Lyndon: So it’s great to come in back to my own home and feel seen and appreciated. But anyway.

Breallyn: I don’t know what to say.

Lyndon: Yeah, you should be ashamed.

Breallyn: I’m not.

Lyndon: I’m saying you should be ashamed.

Breallyn: No, but I’m not.

Welcome to Pain In The Arts

Lyndon: Welcome to Pain In The Arts. You are with Lyndon.

Breallyn: And Breallyn.

Lyndon: And today…

Breallyn: If you’ve ever felt a little under the radar, this episode is for you.

Lyndon: No, because that’s not what we’re actually talking about today. That was just a, that was just a setup to, to shame you. And you don’t care at all.

Breallyn: Didn’t work.

Lyndon: That’d be right.

Breallyn: Oh, I’ve got far bigger things to worry about than whether I notice one or two hairs clipped off the hair.

Lyndon: Honestly, I’m telling you, there was so much hair on my lap that she had to use the hair dryer like a leaf blower three times. Yeah. Anyways, maybe I should take a selfie and stick it on Patreon for everyone to…

Breallyn: Yeah, you can all…

Lyndon: To vote on the before…

Breallyn: Or have a look.

Lyndon: I’ll do the before and after. Yeah. Do that.

Breallyn: I’ll probably remember what hair looked like yesterday when you put it up.

Lyndon: I think this falls under the category of familiarity.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Or boredom or what’s that word? When you actually don’t care about someone, I’ve forgotten. Neglect, anyway. Moving on.

Breallyn: Maybe it’s when you leave a pile of something in the corner of a room for six months, and I see it eyeballing me every single day, but you just seem to glance right over it.

Lyndon: It’s not, but what you just said then is that I’m like a pile of rubbish or clothes in the corner. That’s literally what you just said. “I rest my case, your Honor.”

Post-it Note Philosophy

Lyndon: When I was a kid living in Frankston, which is down, as I used to call it, the gateway to the Peninsula.

Breallyn: You and the sign welcoming everyone into Frankston. Yeah.

Lyndon: To motivate myself or in an effort to motivate myself and be, and be all that I could be. I used to put post-it notes, and when I say used to, I think I did this over the course of one year, but it might have been just part of the year. And, it was all just inspirational quotes that I thought, I’ll read one and then it will…

Breallyn: Ah, it’ll fire up the burners and get you to do it. Yeah. Wow.

Lyndon: This was before I really knew myself.

Breallyn: Process of discovery.

Lyndon: I think I’d find a quote or a quote would find me, and then I’d go, “Oh, I’ve gotta write that down.” It was a weird sort of disappointment actually, to get a book of inspirational quotes and just go, “I’ve just got page by page, write all these down.” It’s, there’s just no end.

Breallyn: I think nothing’s more uninspiring to a person than reading all those and then feeling absolutely flatlined at the end of it.

Lyndon: I remember when my parents were into a preacher called Dr. Robert Schuller, who was at the time, to me, he looked about 80 years old at the time, or 70, but he seemed to remain that age for a long time. But it’s…

Breallyn: Probably like 35, just like all the other people in the nineties.

Lyndon: He’s the first like TV preacher that I was aware of that had merch, so good on him. And, one of the things he had, and my parents got it probably in a pack of it, probably got the pen, the hat and the keychain. I’m not really sure. But, it was a pen, and every time you clicked it, it would have another quote in it.

Breallyn: Oh, clever. It’s…

Lyndon: Actually quite clever, isn’t it? Yeah. One of them was “Turn Your Scars into Stars.”

Breallyn: Oh, wow.

Lyndon: Which is a little bit, I was gonna say, it’s not meaningless, but it’s a bit of a throwaway.

Breallyn: How does one do that?

Lyndon: Yeah. “Turn your scars into stars. Faith is spelt A-C-T-I-O-N.” See, it worked. I still remember them.

Breallyn: There you go.

Lyndon: They weren’t ones I wrote on my post-it notes. But the sort of stuff I had was, “If your dreams don’t scare you, they’re not big enough.”

Breallyn: No, dear.

Lyndon: You go, “Oh yes. A dream becomes a goal when action is taken towards its achievement.” And I go, “Oh yeah, I’m taking action. I’m taking action.” Tick. Tick. Yeah. Classic Mark Twain. “Find your passion and you’ll never work a day in your life.”

Breallyn: I think you still live by that one.

Lyndon: I don’t know. I’m so confused. You haven’t lived…

Breallyn: Worked a day in your life. No, that’s not true.

Lyndon: Nothing great in the world has ever been accomplished without passion. I did choose ones today that kind of were talking about dreams and passion, but that’s a…

Breallyn: Smattering of the…

Lyndon: Sort of the things that they were.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: And I had, I don’t know exactly, but just picture, the bedhead completely covered.

Breallyn: Oh, wow.

Lyndon: And then moving onto the wall.

Breallyn: Yeah. Okay.

Lyndon: So in excess of 40, perhaps up to double that amount. And it was the beginning of overwhelm and confusion, and I would’ve been 15, I think.

Breallyn: I mean, it just highlights, doesn’t it, in the growing brain, like how do you find like a mantra to live by or, your guiding principles or how, yeah, what star do you follow? What do you do when you’re trying to figure out how am I gonna, what am I gonna do? How am I gonna live? What are my values? It’s very hard. So yeah, definitely. You’ve painted a picture of the young, confused teen.

Lyndon: I think what was going on was I had an idea of what I wanted to do with my life, and it was at odds with what everyone around me was telling me. I guess so it was an effort to stay focused on that.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: It wasn’t necessarily a great, it might have worked for a few weeks, I’m not sure. Yeah. But it wasn’t… I don’t know. Maybe you just try these things and then you move on.

Breallyn: It’s not the first time you’ve mentioned the post-it note. I kind of era.

Lyndon: I do think it, well, so, yeah, it’s a strong image in my mind, but I also think it’s funny and perhaps a little bit sad, and maybe as time has gone on, I can see it in a different context.

Mastering Your Passion: RZA and Wu-Tang Clan

Lyndon: What we’re talking about today is mastering your passion. And this has come up because I was listening to RZA on the Smartless podcast. Mm-hmm. So RZA is a legendary figure in music. He was the de facto leader of the Wu-Tang Clan.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Which doesn’t sound like what it is and what the Wu-Tang Clan is or are, is an iconic hip hop group.

Breallyn: Yes, I did know that. Yeah.

Lyndon: RZA is one of these guys that, he’s an innovator and he’s a very disciplined individual. He’s done so much stuff. He’s produced so many albums, platinum-selling albums.

Breallyn: Great.

Lyndon: He’s written soundtracks for movies.

Breallyn: Wow.

Lyndon: Including Kill Bill One, Kill Bill Two. He’s written a ballet.

Breallyn: Oh, wow.

Lyndon: I know, multidisciplinary. He’s already been, he’s a director of movies. He’s a movie director.

Breallyn: Yeah. Wow.

Lyndon: So it’s like, how do you move across the different disciplines? Yeah.

Breallyn: There’s so many media types and, yeah.

Lyndon: And be so good at it.

Breallyn: Yeah. Amazing.

Lyndon: Like he’s, he’s done even more than mentioned.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: But even that is a lot. So he was asked, “How does he do it?” And that’s where my ears pricked up. ‘Cause he said, “Master your passion.” So he believes in this idea of if you can get good at one thing that you’re passionate about, that’ll bleed into everything else.

Breallyn: Okay.

Lyndon: And that is something I’ve heard before and something that I actually have believed in for a long time. And I remember talking to some people about it, and they completely debunked it for me. And I thought, “Oh, maybe that’s not a good idea.” That nearly, yeah, like that, that just doesn’t happen. What happens is you become really good at one thing, and that’s it. In fact, there’s also this idea of if you learn a lot about one thing, then you know a lot about everything.

Breallyn: Yeah, I’ve definitely heard that.

Lyndon: Is that what it is?

Breallyn: If you know a lot about one thing, a little bit about everything is the way that I’ve heard it said.

Lyndon: I kinda, I do get that and I have subscribed to that philosophy in the past. Like I don’t think it’s a terrible thing.

Breallyn: Does it sit as opposite to this quote, which we all know, “Jack of all trades”?

Lyndon: That’s what I was thinking of too. But it’s, but the full quote, “Jack of all trades, master of none…”

Breallyn: But the full quote is, “Jack of all trades, master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one.” Because if you know a bunch about a bunch of different things, then that’s better than knowing everything about the one thing.

Lyndon: Yeah.

Breallyn: But, I don’t know, when you’re like a peak kind of artist, maybe you only really wanna know about that one thing or like having that driving focus, that narrow point of focus is, I don’t know, more preferable.

Passion vs. Craft: Two Schools of Thought

Lyndon: Yeah. I thought today we’d talk about this idea of mastering your passion, but what it does bring up is the two schools of thought. And I guess you hinted at it then that there are opposing thoughts on this. And I guess over the years my thoughts have probably, I don’t think they’ve particularly changed, but I can see the challenges in all of them.

But the two main schools of thought are Follow Your Passion. That’s one camp. And the other camp is Master Your Craft.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: And then there’s all these discussions on what do you do first? Or can you do one without the other? It’s really murky waters I think. It’s also something I think about a lot away from actually doing. And I feel like it does get in the way of head down, bum up and just…

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Working on whatever it is that you’ve gotta get done.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: That day. It’s a philosophical conversation, isn’t it? There’s no like right answer.

Breallyn: There’s no right answer because I think even when you start out one way, you might have to adapt your course, just depending on what life comes out. I think, I was looking at a quote the other day that said, speaking of quotes, I’m not gonna remember it very well. Paraphrasing it, it said life can only be understood looking backwards in retrospect, but it has to be lived facing forwards and moving forwards.

So it’s hard to go, this is how it’s all gonna pan out and I’m gonna, I’m gonna go with this school of thought and do it this way. You can do that, but it might always turn out that way. And some people have found that they’ve to, change approach midlife, or mid-course because it doesn’t work for them.

The Role of Smart Goals

Lyndon: Yeah. It brings up a question of how long do you persist with one particular viewpoint or one particular attitude, or one particular approach? And I do know of people that have said things like, “I’m giving myself three years, I’m gonna pursue this thing doggedly for three years, and then if that doesn’t work out, however they measure that.”

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: I’m stopping. And I’ve always found that a really strange, I’ve found that just to be a strange concept, but at the same time, for some people it’s probably warranted.

Breallyn: For sure. And if you’re being strategic about something, and using like SMART goals, the…

Lyndon: No.

Breallyn: S-M-A-R-T.

Lyndon: It’s not an acronym, is it? It sounds like it’s an acronym.

Breallyn: It’s, if you are going by like those SMART goals, which is Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant, and Time-bound. Then, yeah.

Lyndon: Oh my gosh.

Breallyn: Yeah. I guess it’s, it is important, like if you’re looking at something as a business then yeah, it is quite good to get narrow in your specifications, like, yeah. Yeah.

Lyndon: It does make sense when you’re setting yourself some sort of achievable goals within the broader vision.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: I guess the people I’m thinking of were saying things more akin to, “I’m gonna pursue this music thing for three years and then if it doesn’t work out,” that kind of stuff. Which is, which is way too broad and non-specific, isn’t it?

Breallyn: Yeah, if that was the extent of things. If, yeah. But I suppose if they’ve got in mind, “I wanna have this much recording done and this sort of crowd size and do this kind of tour,” if they’ve got that also planned out and ways in order to actually do those things, then that is SMART goals. But yeah, yeah, to go, “Ah, just give it three years, see what happens, and then stop,” I don’t know. It’s not really a plan and it’s not really, it’s not pursuing a passion really then, is it? It’s just giving something a go. Yeah.

Lyndon: This is the thing, like it doesn’t fall into the, follow your passion, and it doesn’t fall into master your craft.

Breallyn: Yeah, that’s true. True.

Lyndon: It doesn’t fall into either of those things. So it’s, more of a, what’s it actually? SMART Goals. SMART goals. Yeah. Yeah. It’s, but it isn’t…

Breallyn: Though that either. ‘Cause it’s not specific, measurable, achievable, relevant. It might be time bound, but it’s, yeah. If that’s the only thing it is, I’m gonna pursue something for three years. It doesn’t have any more markers in that. Yeah. Yeah.

Lyndon: Normally you would have say what your passion is and what you are working towards and something that you believe in, and then you would set your goals up so that you’ve got these little, markers along the way. You can set your course and then you need some way of measuring that. And so that would be SMART goals would come into that. I think they’re a bit more macro.

Breallyn: But yeah, they’re not really within either of those things you’re saying.

Lyndon: Yeah. And that’s why RZA’s quote pricked up my ears because he was saying, “Master your passion.” I was just wondering what…

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Did he mean by that?

Breallyn: And what do you think?

The Journey of Mastery and the 10,000 Hour Rule

Lyndon: I’ll get to it. Strangely, maybe it guilt-tripped me into it, but I did some research. The way I have operated, to be honest, is I’ve had a passion and then I’ve believed in mastering that, and along the way I’ve decided that I’ll never master it. That, that’s a bit of a fallacy, but the pursuit of that is definitely important.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: And to take it seriously. And I think over the years, what I’ve had to do is work out how that works for me and to temper it with not becoming obsessed, not forsaking everything else because of it, and still feeling like that I’m on that journey of, of mastering something.

Breallyn: Because it’s like a relationship with something, in your case, music, it’s a lifelong relationship. It’s not like mastering and completing something. It’s not finishing a task.

Lyndon: Yeah. It’ll never be finished.

Breallyn: No, ’cause that’s not what it’s supposed to be.

Lyndon: No. I’ve done a hybrid approach. I’ve never thought about it like that until I was looking into this, and I don’t think that this is unusual either. I think most people I know that are pursuing anything, in my world, it starts with something that they’re actually really passionate about and then they try and get good at that.

What happens over the years is then you start going, “How do I actually keep living and getting money to keep doing this?” And then you branch out and you feel like, “Am I diluting my, am I diluting the thing that I’m passionate about or, is this adding value to it?”

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: In, in more ways than just financially. And I have a feeling there’s a lot of musicians in Australia that would like to be a little bit, have their focus a little bit more single-minded and they can’t. They have to be…

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: They have to be engineers as well, or they have to be producers or, they have to look at offering mastering services. That they never set out to do that. But it’s…

Breallyn: Or being teachers.

Lyndon: Something they can do or doing teaching is a common one.

Breallyn: Wedding gigs or doing, yeah. Whatever it is.

Lyndon: All that sort of stuff. And then still, keeping that fire burning.

Breallyn: Yeah. Here’s the question. Can you be a master? Is like, when is it that somebody goes, “I’m a master of this thing now. I’ve literally got a master’s”? I don’t think I’ve mastered anything.

Lyndon: Yeah. That’s funny, isn’t it?

Breallyn: Yeah. Master’s in creative writing, publishing and editing. And I feel like I’m the, an apprentice still.

Lyndon: I don’t know, like all the people I look up to that I feel are at the top of their game, say like Tommy Emmanuel. He would never say he’s mastered it.

Breallyn: No. No.

Lyndon: And he was a massive disciple, let’s say, for want of a better word, of Chet Atkins. And Chet Atkins was also considered to be the absolute master at what he did.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: But I don’t think he would’ve considered that. But interestingly enough, he handed out what he called Certified Guitar Players. Like he would… Yeah. I don’t even know how this came about. He just, I, feel like I should have Brett Wood here to school me on this. Should probably get him on, but he would know.

I don’t know who said, “Hey, Chet, that’s a great idea. You can knight these people basically who you consider to be certified guitar players.” But it’s like a top honor and only a few people have got it. And Tommy Emmanuel’s one of them.

Breallyn: Wow.

Lyndon: So these are guys that, in that finger-picking guitar style are considered worldwide as being the best masters at what they do.

Breallyn: Yeah. Like the masters of that craft.

Lyndon: Yeah. And, I can see that. Yeah. Like the, like no one would dispute that.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: And they’re not the only ones. Obviously there’s others. I think Michael Fix, like where’s, I haven’t heard that name for a while. Michael Fix is an Australian, guitar picker.

Breallyn: I don’t know, I’ve ever heard that name. Sorry, Michael.

Lyndon: Yeah. And like you should because he is, he’s brilliant as well.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: So many guys that are at the top of their game.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: But I don’t think they personally would go, “Yeah. The journey’s over for me. I’m just resting on my laurels now.”

Breallyn: Reach the peak.

Lyndon: Yeah. You can’t get that good from it not being a passion. And that’s the thing about this whole master your craft is I think, from what I’ve understood, that camp are saying, you can find something, anything, become a master at it, and then through the doing of that it creates a passion.

Breallyn: Yes. Yeah. There’s people that, that do that in all kind of lines of work. Like they might be excellent at restoring pools and they become really good at it and then become really passionate about it. So they know a lot about it. They can see it. A backyard and go, “I know exactly what to do here and I can get this looking its best.” I don’t know, like it’s something.

Lyndon: It seems to me like it happens in business more.

Breallyn: Yeah. It does happen in businesses. Yeah.

Lyndon: Because you can get really passionate about the business, whatever that is.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: And I guess it can happen in the arts as well, but it’s a bit more unusual. Like none of those people I just mentioned before would’ve started without a passion for guitar. That they’re like, “No, that’s right.” Yeah. This, yeah. Don’t think anyone takes up…

Breallyn: An instrument, apart from like when your parents force you to, but do you continue an instrument and playing, getting better without that interest, without that passion? I don’t know.

Lyndon: No, you do Peter out. Yeah, it’s hard to sustain because it’s just in terms of, yeah. Learning an instrument, regardless of whether it comes naturally to you or not, it takes a concerted effort. You need to spend a lot of time with the instrument.

Breallyn: It seems to be one of those higher level operating skills that as soon as you stop or as soon as you don’t regularly practice, you lose that skill very quickly. It’s not really riding a bike at all. If you don’t practice your instrument for six months, you’ve lost a lot of skill. I think.

Lyndon: I think it, I think in the early years, the early days, definitely. And then what happens is you hit plateaus.

Breallyn: Right.

Lyndon: And then you fall back to that plateau. That’s what happens.

Breallyn: Gotcha. Yep.

Lyndon: And then it just, it really depends on, at that point, like what you’re taking on or what you’re investing time into. But you get a good sense of that. You know that, “Oh, if I don’t push through this next little bit, it’ll all unstick and I’ll just fall back to where I was.” Yeah.

Breallyn: This next leg of the journey type thing.

Lyndon: This next discipline or, yeah. Whatever that might be.

Breallyn: That makes sense. Yeah.

Lyndon: And so it is more akin to riding a bike at that point.

Breallyn: Right.

Lyndon: ‘Cause you have this muscle memory as well.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: So in answer to your question, can one ever master it? It, it also brings up, can someone ever become a master at their chosen discipline or field?

Breallyn: Looking from outside, you’d say, yes. There’s so many people that have mastered so many things. Yeah, yeah. So you’d say you can. Yeah. But then it brings up another question is that the point or what’s the point? Yeah.

Lyndon: Or why would you do that?

Breallyn: Why would you look at yourself, go, “Yeah, I’m a master now. I’m all good.” I don’t know. No, but I…

Lyndon: I think the people that do reach that level, don’t do it for that reason. I think they’re on a journey.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: This is another cliché, isn’t it? But, I was reading a blog by a guy called Oliver Page, pretty interesting. He studied to be a doctor, and I think at some point gave that away.

Breallyn: Maybe.

Lyndon: Due to not being passionate about it. He was interested in it and he thought that he could do good in the world, discovered he wasn’t that passionate about it. And now he’s a medical copywriter.

Breallyn: Medical copywriter,

Lyndon: Health and medical copywriter. Yes, and I just happened to come across a blog that he wrote on this very topic, and he said that related to this is an even deeper point. “Who do we become on the journey? How alive can we become by toiling away at work? We’re bound to by duty alone, contributing in ways that don’t speak to our emotional core.”

Who do we become on the journey when we’re pursuing something we’re passionate about? And who do we become on the journey when we’re doing something that we’re not necessarily passionate about, but we just feel duty bound to it?

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: And it is a conundrum.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Because you can go into fields that interest you and that you’re doing for all the right reasons. And then at some point you go, “Actually…”

Breallyn: I’m not feeling…

Lyndon: The journey isn’t…

Breallyn: I’m not feeling alive inside.

Lyndon: Yeah, yeah. The journey isn’t, or it’s, I hoped it would be.

Breallyn: Yeah. And it does make you have to reflect and go, “I’ve really only got this time on Earth. How do I spend it the best that I can?” So yeah. If it doesn’t bring you alive to be pursuing something, then yeah, I think most people I know would feel a little empty at the end of it.

The Impact of Mastery on Self and Others

Lyndon: With this whole idea of who do we become on the journey? It’s also not just about who do we become, but how does that affect the people around us? Yeah. As, as well. And I think as we move through life with different relationships and different responsibilities, we come more acutely aware of that. And we either face up to it and adjust or we, or we turn away from it or dig our heels in or focus more on the work.

And when things get hard and, yeah. Maybe get a bit more dogmatic about things and it’s a real, it can be a real juggling act. And, and I feel empathetic ’cause we all go through it and we all have, sometimes some tough decisions to make.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: To say the least. That 10,000-hour rule is an interesting concept, isn’t it?

Breallyn: Oh, yeah. So what is it, 10, 10,000 hours? It’s…

Lyndon: The idea that, apply yourself to anything for a minimum of 10,000 hours, then you will have mastered that thing.

Breallyn: Oh, really? 10,000 hours.

Lyndon: Yeah. Okay. So it’s, basically suggesting that 10,000 hours of deliberate practice.

Breallyn: Right.

Lyndon: Is needed to achieve expert level. So let’s just say that. And…

Breallyn: If you did a, if you do a thousand hours a year on something, you’ll be better than 95% of the population in that thing. That’s the other one. So that would mean 10 years of like dedicated, application to something, say guitar, then you master level. Yeah. It’s about…

Lyndon: Consistent focused effort. Yeah. Over time. Yeah. Over time. Yeah. And I think we can all go, “Yeah, that makes a big difference.”

Breallyn: Yeah, definitely.

Lyndon: But anyone that has been on this sort of journey knows that it’s also the quality, isn’t it, of that time that you put in, you can’t just clock up the hours.

Breallyn: No, absolutely. And you bring something different like each person does. I know of some writers whose writings I’ve read who I just think it’s just such drivel, it’s really poor, and yet they would’ve put in those 10,000 hours and they would’ve been able to, have output and so on. And yeah, like each person, when they’re bringing themselves to the work and to the, mastering that craft, it’s such a mix of who you are. It’s not just, everybody’s gonna get the same result from the time put in.

Lyndon: Yeah. When we talk about this podcast as being in the pursuit of meaningful art, but you could put. Meaningful whatever after that. If you put, there’s probably loads of people that have put 10,000 hours into Call of Duty, that’s like…

Breallyn: Master level.

Lyndon: They’re masters of at Call of Duty or masters of some people Minecraft.

Breallyn: Have done a, Guitar Hero and then decided, “Oh, may as well take up actual guitar.”

Lyndon: So they’ve become a master, they Guitar Hero. Yeah. Or at least an expert. They put in the 10,000 hours. And I guess what we’re saying a measure is as long as they, enjoyed the journey and, and were fulfilled along the way, I guess then it’s probably fine.

Breallyn: I don’t know. It’s, a different thing, isn’t it? If you’re putting 10,000 hours into Call of Duty, are you trying to pursue excellence in something or you just, that’s your escapism, that’s your, your hobby, your thing that it’s not really, is it about mastering it?

Lyndon: I think maybe it is for a very, small percentage of people that are trying to be in the worldwide EA games or whatever it is.

Breallyn: Yeah, I guess there’s professional gaming sports. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe, but yeah. Yeah.

Organic Mastery and Committing to Values

Lyndon: I want to go back for a moment to Oliver Page. Because he says, “The most significant point is who mastery shapes us to be. Having the experience of perfecting a craft can build our self-reliance, self-esteem, and confidence. We become stoic and resourceful in the face of life’s setbacks and others around us benefit from this a great deal.” And I think that’s what RZA meant when he said mastering your passion.

Breallyn: Okay.

Lyndon: That’s what I think he’s talking about.

Breallyn: Who it shaped him to be.

Lyndon: Yes. ‘Cause I think he started as a lyricist when he was eight or nine.

Breallyn: Yeah. Wow.

Lyndon: Yeah. I think this is what he’s talking about, that he had spent a long time perfecting his craft. That idea of mastering something that you’re passionate about, which is normally something that you’ve identified quite young. I would think, that passion is just undeniable. And then the things that it’s built up in him, like self-reliance, self-esteem, the confidence, that’s what boosts you and enables you to then confidently push some boundaries and explore some other things.

And yeah, ask questions and become resourceful. In any industry you’re gonna be getting pushbacks and setbacks along the way. And if you’ve managed to, over time, I’m trying to not use the word master, but basically elevate yourself to a position of really knowing what it is that you do and understanding it, and you could be considered to be an expert in it, then that is really gonna be a great starting point for you to be able to explore some other disciplines. Yeah, so I, so yeah, it’s, I think that’s what he’s talking about.

Breallyn: Like a loop almost. Like the closer you get towards mastering something, the more you’ve become a certain person, which then enables you to keep pushing and pursuing those goals of, like proficiency, as you say. Yeah. So it’s like a continual loop of becoming and then pursuing and achieving.

Lyndon: Yeah, essentially. And I also think that he has the capacity to do that, and not everyone does. There’s only…

Breallyn: Oh yeah.

Lyndon: There’s only some people that have the capacity do so much in so little time. It would seem.

Breallyn: For sure.

Lyndon: And to be so bold.

Breallyn: Say we, we’d all have a potential for things. And yeah, some people just have much, much greater potential in different areas than others do. And we’ve…

Lyndon: Spoken about Prince before. Prince is one of those guys that just had a relentless work ethic.

Breallyn: Yeah. And a huge capacity and potential.

Lyndon: Did it cost him in the end though? Yeah. I don’t know. Before when I was saying that I feel like I’ve perhaps engaged in a hybrid approach, which I think is very normal. Oliver Page calls this Organic Mastery.

Breallyn: Oh, yeah.

Lyndon: It’s more about who we become.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: So for him, he feels like that’s a real middle ground. “I started listening to my heart intently. What truly makes me come alive? What makes me forget about time? On one hand I value mastery and commitment to one’s craft, but just because I can persist with something, I no longer let that dictate whether I should see it through.” His conclusion has been, “Commit to values, not paths.”

Breallyn: Oh, yeah. So…

Lyndon: That is really in line with this idea of, who do you become…

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: On the journey. I think that makes sense to me. And that’s definitely something that I’ve done. And it’s still a challenge because your values at times can be stumbling blocks and they can be opportunities lost because of your values. There has to be something, there has to be things that sit alongside your passion, that keep the passion alive, but also keep the journey going.

And it takes more than just passion. So I think it’s really important to, to know who you are. And I guess that’s what I wanted to get onto. And…

Breallyn: I would say values to me, like they are, like you guiding kind of beacons throughout that life. There’s infinite possibilities and opportunities, but which ones you’re gonna say yes to and which ones you’re gonna say no to. Have to be guided by your values and your principles because that’s, that is who you are. That is what you really, deeply believe underneath and the values that you have, they’re not all always the values that people say that they have, but I think that your choices show your values in the end.

Key Takeaways for Mastering Your Passion

Lyndon: Yeah, I guess it’s really difficult to separate yourself and your craft from who you are as a person. You can’t really have one without the other. Can you? I’m so confused. I think it’s such a confusing topic.

Breallyn: Wrap it up there!

Lyndon: I’ve found over the years is that you have a passion. You pursue that in a way where you’re trying to become better and better all the time at it. You keep learning along the way. You find people that can help you and help steer you because you want to not fast track it, but you’re just eager and hungry for more information. You’re hungry to learn and you wanna put things in the practice, get better.

So it’s exciting. So I think all this stuff nearly is a given in my mind. The other things I think that are important in terms of mastering your passion is protecting your vision. I think that’s really important, which opens up a whole other topic for another time. Yeah.

Breallyn: Think that’s another topic. Definitely. Yeah. But in…

Lyndon: A world full of opinions, it’s crucial to guard your unique spark.

Breallyn: Yeah, definitely.

Lyndon: Whatever it was that started that for you.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: And the direction that you believe it should take?

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Because that just keeps getting challenged and smashed and rocked continually.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: So I think protecting your vision is really important. The other thing I’ve learned, and I’m still learning, is to be kind and generous to yourself.

Breallyn: Yeah. That’s a tricky one to remember each day.

Lyndon: Because there’s setbacks and there’s frustrations.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: You need this whole self-compassion element.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: The last point I thought about too is you need to find new reasons to believe in yourself again and again.

Breallyn: That’s a good point. Yeah.

Lyndon: Because there are occasions regularly.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: That you are your own worst enemy.

Breallyn: Oh yeah.

Lyndon: And it’s often sparked by external forces.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Other people’s well-meaning opinions. A lot of times we were talking the other day about you can go out to have a fairly innocuous dinner or a bit of time out just to, catch up with someone and they can talk perfect sense to you.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: And it completely derails your week because you think, “Oh yeah, of course, it’s more sensible than this.”

Breallyn: Of course.

Lyndon: What am I doing?

Breallyn: Ridiculous way that I live here. Yeah.

Lyndon: So that falls under protecting your vision, but it also falls under, believing in yourself again.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: And again, because doubt creeps in and you need to seek out something that reignites you with your conviction and reminds you of why you started. Yeah. So those are the things that I think keys to mastering your passion. But I do like that idea of mastering your passion as opposed to going, “Should I follow my passion or should I just become good at the craft?” Or it’s master your passion. And see where that leads you.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Me and my new haircut and tooth are going to leave you now. Great. See you in the kitchen.

Breallyn: All right.

Lyndon: You’ve been listening to Pain In The Arts. Please head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a review. That’d be awesome.

Breallyn: The more stars the better.

Lyndon: Actually, I’m gonna bring that word back. Awesome. Because I just don’t think it gets used enough. It…

Breallyn: Really doesn’t, does it? Awesome.

Lyndon: That would be ace. There you go.

Breallyn: If you don’t have time to write something nice, click on five stars.

I once gave my own Facebook page a rating of two stars by accident and then spent two days trying to work out how to reverse it. Really? Brought that rating down.

Breallyn: No, it’s too sad.

Lyndon: Visit the website www.PainInTheArts.life have a poke around. Join the mailing list, actually. Yeah, that’d be good. There you go. Let’s start a mailing list.

Breallyn: Okay, and that means we have to send out emails to people.

Lyndon: We do have a mailing list, and you can join that by visiting the website and head on over to Patreon as well. That is where you find all the behind the scenes stuff. There’s a couple of extra podcasts on there, and you’re basically following the journey of our creative life, in particular, Brea’s writing a book, and I am writing the music for the audiobook. Get access to all of that stuff on our Patreon, which is www.patreon.com/PainInTheArtslife.

And that’s it from us this week. We’ll talk to you next week.

Breallyn: See ya.

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