September 02, 2025 · Episode 36
51 Min, 05 Sec 

Summary

Every artist knows the sting of comparison. In this episode, Lyndon and Brea explore creative envy—the mix of admiration, aspiration, and longing that shows up when you see someone else succeed. They talk about how envy can stall your work, but also how it can be transformed into energy for making your own.

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Transcript

Lyndon: Welcome to Pain In The Arts, where the pursuit of meaningful art meets the unpredictable demands of real life. I’m Lyndon.

Breallyn: And I’m Breallyn

Lyndon: and I’m talking really quickly this morning.

Breallyn: Wow. What’s the rush?

Lyndon: I don’t know.

Breallyn: Got somewhere to be?

Lyndon: Yeah. I’ve gotta go for a swim today.

Breallyn: Oh yeah. What else is on the agenda?

Lyndon: It’s been on the to-do list for a month.

Breallyn: Okay.

Lyndon: Well, going to see a physio there. Jury’s still out on whether the physio is any good. I don’t know. I think the only, you know what, there’s a pattern here. I go see a physio.

Breallyn: Mm.

Lyndon: And they tell me they know what the problem is. But I have to do all the work apparently. So that’s really starting off on the back foot and then you—

Breallyn: —sack them. Is that the next step in the—so you want the physio to do all of the actual adjustments and what? You just walk out with a new spine?

Lyndon: I dunno, can you massage nerves?

Breallyn: I have a feeling that wouldn’t actually help them.

Lyndon: I don’t know. I did this thing, it cost $80 Australian, it’s a course, so basically video content that you follow and it’s about stretching your nerves.

I’ve only done it once.

Breallyn: Nothing’s gonna work if you do it once. Like, it doesn’t matter which technique you choose.

Lyndon: The problem. Well I thought, I thought this is actually a really. This makes sense. You know, when you hear something medically that you’ve got no knowledge about and it’s completely new information to you and you go—

Breallyn: —and then you go—

Lyndon: —ah, that might be why these other things.

Breallyn: It’s the kernel of truth. And we’ve not been told this ever before.

Lyndon: Yeah.

Why haven’t the physios and the osteos and the myotherapists ever said anything about this? Those silly professionals just keep getting me to stretch my muscles. But the nerve, there’s nerves in the muscles and they don’t like being stretched like that.

You need to do different, gentler kind of stretches that target the nerves.

Breallyn: Mm.

Lyndon: So that you don’t aggravate them. That’s basically the gist of it.

Breallyn: Right.

Lyndon: So I was like, great, I’m gonna do this.

And there’s one that you’ve gotta do where you’re sitting down on a chair and I think you sort of gotta point your toe or lift your toe towards yourself and then I don’t know, like look down with your front eyes.

I’m not sure. I can’t quite remember. You just had to sort of, it was like a, like all the stretches seem like a little bit nothing. But when I did it, I felt something click or release in the back of my neck. Like nothing major, just a little thing. I just noticed it and I immediately got a migraine.

Breallyn: Oh my gosh.

Lyndon: Yeah. Like with like, immediately it was just like, I just got all this, a rush of pain. Uh, yeah. I felt so ill and I’ve never gone back to it, even though I think I—

Breallyn: I mean I’d be asking for a refund at that point.

Lyndon: Yeah. I don’t know.

Breallyn: Wow.

Lyndon: So anyway, I don’t wanna start off the show talking about medical stuff.

Breallyn: Well that sounds horrible. Well, I was gonna start by saying this room seems like a bit of a sanctuary, but the rest of our house smells like burnt chops. Why? Why is that Lyndon?

Lyndon: Well, I got tired of all the good meaty smells coming from our neighbors’ barbecues.

And I thought we need some of that inside our house for the next week. Yeah. It didn’t work out.

Breallyn: Yeah, no.

Lyndon: For listeners that have been here since the beginning. ‘Cause I reckon that’s how long I’ve been searching for. Yeah, it probably is, probably been searching for longer for a second car and at first it was gonna be a second car that replaced our little sedan that is not appropriate for driving Birdie around in. Long story short, we put a deposit on another car and so we’ll see what happens with that.

Breallyn: Hopefully you’ll go pick it up.

Lyndon: Yeah, I know.

I just always have this feeling of like, until something’s in my possession or until someone’s paid a deposit. You know, like until everything’s been paid, I suppose I feel like, you know, who knows what might happen after looking at the car and having a great conversation with the people that are selling it and finding out that they train dogs and all kinds of interesting information.

And—

Breallyn: —you, you made a new friend, you guys have been texting each other about camping hacks and all sorts of things.

Lyndon: Well, he was texting me before I’d even gone down and sending me links to hardware and different places to get plywood from. ‘Cause he’s fitting out his van for traveling in.

Breallyn: Right.

Lyndon: So that he can get away for a week here and there and go fishing. ‘Cause he loves fishing. That’s his thing.

Breallyn: Well, the next thing you guys will be coordinating itineraries together.

Lyndon: Yeah, I know.

Yep. So that’s been happening. Okay.

Breallyn: That’s been happening. Yeah. Well that’s been, uh, yeah. Hopefully it’ll be the conclusion of all that research that you’ve been doing for, let’s say eight months at least.

Lyndon: All year.

Breallyn: Actually a year. It’s been all this year.

Lyndon: Yeah, all this year.

Breallyn: Yeah, all this year. But even last year we’d started to talk about it, so it’s probably been at least 12 months. Wow.

Lyndon: That’s pretty normal, I think. Is that, is that normal?

Breallyn: Um, drop us a comment.

Is it normal or is it not?

Lyndon: I don’t know?

Breallyn: Is it Lyndon specific?

Lyndon: No, I think people would be—I’ve got no idea.

Breallyn: You don’t know what real people do. I dunno. If—

Lyndon: If I had friends that could tell me what they do—

Breallyn: —in lieu of friends, please tell us.

Spring and False Spring in Melbourne

Lyndon: Yeah. It’s also coming up to my favorite time of the year.

Breallyn: What’s that?

Lyndon: Spring?

Breallyn: Hmm.

Lyndon: It’s, I think I like spring because you’re coming out of winter.

So you’re sort of thawing out. You get more sunny days. I think it’s the weather thing, but it’s also a football thing.

Breallyn: Yeah. It’s the nearly the finals.

Lyndon: Nearly the AFL football.

Breallyn: Yeah. So that’s always a good time of year. And plus my birthday lands normally on the Grand Final or the day before or the day after.

It’s generally around the same time, so I don’t, so maybe it’s just that it’s just a culmination of a few things.

Breallyn: Mm. Spring is good, but remember we’re in Melbourne, so what we’re experiencing at the moment is False Spring. What do you mean? There’s the False Spring.

Lyndon: What like, like faux spring?

Breallyn: No, literally. I don’t know. It’s false.

Lyndon: Claytons Spring.

Breallyn: It just, it comes, you get this, you know, few days or beautiful week of weather. You go, oh, yay, spring. And you just start thinking about. You know, you’re planting, I mean, I’ve literally done a whole lot of gardening and making everything look pretty, and then all of a sudden the weather turns and it just chucks down rain and howling winds.

So just to remind you that it’s not spring.

Lyndon: No, I’m fine with that because it technically isn’t spring, so that’s okay.

Breallyn: That’s why we’re in false spring.

Lyndon: Well, no, we’re in winter. No one calls it false spring.

Breallyn: I’m pretty sure we have at least a dozen seasons here in Melbourne. We don’t have four.

Lyndon: This is what I expect that on the day that winter ends, the next day has to be spring.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: So you are, you are suggesting that the weather somehow doesn’t adhere to the calendar.

Breallyn: No.

Lyndon: And that somewhere in the transition between winter and spring, there’s this murky gray area. Metaphorically and actually.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Of false spring.

Breallyn: Absolutely.

Lyndon: So it’s just a transition.

Breallyn: It’s a transition.

I mean, crazy to think that here in the southern hemisphere, seasons don’t align with the English, uh—

Lyndon: —language?

Breallyn: Well, the divvying up of the seasons, I suppose. No, I actually have seen a calendar of the indigenous population of this area and how they divided it up and it, yeah, it’s very, very different.

There wasn’t like four seasons at all. It was all kinds of different seasons marked by when certain things would come into blossom and when certain foods were available and that sort of thing. So yeah. Much more region specific. And, um, but we don’t really adhere to that.

We just go winter, spring, false spring.

Lyndon: Well, Melbourne is known for having four seasons in one day.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Which is also a song by Crowded House. So imagine if they had to write the indigenous version of that and it would be like 36 seasons in one day.

Breallyn: Yeah, true.

Lyndon: Yeah, that’s true. The indigenous seasonal calendar yeah.

Is way more helpful actually.

Breallyn: Yeah. And then maybe we wouldn’t have to label it false spring and get our hopes up.

Lyndon: It’s got a more practical use than just whether we should pack a coat and an umbrella.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: And a cap.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: And a tank top.

Breallyn: I wonder if they—

Lyndon: —and a pair of thongs.

Breallyn: You know, hey, we live in, well, I don’t know what all of the different nations called this part of the world, but we live here, layer up. Like, if that was the advice back then. Oh, okay. Yeah, because it’s certainly the, yeah, well, you know, anyone that comes to Melbourne, like the visitors and so on, we go, oh yeah, just wear layers.

Wear layers, you know, you go your t-shirt, then your shirt, your jumper, and you always pack your coat.

Lyndon: Yeah, yeah. We’re not the only city in the world like that, but certainly in Australia.

Breallyn: Mm.

Lyndon: We are known for that. It’s, it is part of the charm, I guess, of living here in a way. You do get used to, but I remember coming here from Western Australia when I was a kid and yeah, it felt really cold.

Breallyn: Mm.

Lyndon: So even on what we would consider a nice day here, like it can be really nice here if the sun’s out, there’s no clouds and it’s only 19 degrees.

Breallyn: Hmm.

Lyndon: You know, maybe an autumn day, something like that. And I would’ve been in, I would’ve been in like a long sleeve ski, a jumper, long pants.

And most if not all, the other kids at school would’ve been in a t-shirt and shorts. Yeah. But I was used to just living in a t-shirt and shorts all year round.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Pretty much. Yeah. So you notice it when you first come here, but you acclimate and yeah. And you expect to have, you know, a few wild and woolly days in winter, but it’s not ever that terrible.

Breallyn: No.

Lyndon: Is it?

Breallyn: It’s never that terrible. No. I’ve seen Canadians doing videos going, what are you talking about Australia? Nothing here is cold.

Lyndon: Yeah. Yeah. We’re soft.

Breallyn: Yep.

Yep. Well, on that note—

Exploring Conflicting Creative Emotions

Lyndon: —what have you got for us today? I’m sort of looking forward to this because I have no idea what your topic is but I feel like maybe I can just sit here silently while you present the whole thing.

Breallyn: No, it’s not gonna happen. Oh, I don’t think so. I feel like last time when you brought a topic, I did more of the talking than you did. I dunno if that’s actually true. It just felt like I talked a lot.

Lyndon: Yeah. Well, um, maybe you just had good questions and prompts.

Breallyn: I, you know what it was, I, well, I would never claim to have well thought out questions, but you did just come back the day before.

Lyndon: Oh, that’s right.

Breallyn: From your time away. Yes. So you were geed up and pretty excited and, uh—

Lyndon: —oh, well, and the whole episode was you asking me about that, so yeah. Okay. That makes sense.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: But that doesn’t let you off the hook for today because yeah, I definitely need your input.

But today the episode that I’m bringing is digging into some conflicting emotions. It’s, that’s—

Lyndon: —that’s a Split Enz album. Sorry to interrupt, but um, yeah, that’s a great album.

Breallyn: What’s it called?

Lyndon: Conflicting Emotions.

Breallyn: Oh, maybe they were experiencing this. It’s because like what I’ve called this episode is Admiration, Aspiration, and Envy.

And I wanted to explore the kind of layered complexity of feelings that can come when you are looking at other people’s work or working with other people or being within creative communities. You know, we’ve talked before about community and how important it is. Uh, we’ve talked about comparison, but I wanted to go into, I don’t know, just this idea that you can feel more than one thing at once.

So you might be admiring of someone’s work or career or whatever it is that they’ve got. But sometimes that admiration can spill into envy, but what you’re really feeling is admiration also.

I don’t know, it’s just a kind of a layered thing, I suppose.

Lyndon: Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah. I regularly think about this. I am nearly certain I was a much more content creator when I didn’t have social media.

Breallyn: Yeah. I was specifically sort of thinking more about how we as creative people can understand I suppose, the differences in those feelings or just acknowledge them and how it can sometimes hold us back, but how also we can use it to be a good thing and propel us forward.

So I was thinking about it because I think I mentioned last week I went to—it wasn’t a book launch, it was just like a panel discussion put out by Sisters In Crime, which are a great group. They’ve got lots of different events and things going on, so check them out. But yeah, I was thinking about how whenever I do go to an author event, a talk at a writer’s festival or like a book launch or something like that.

I’m always like, super nerd girl, kind of excited about it, but also I have feelings like, oh, this ought to be me. You know, that person looks younger than me. They’ve done it. Why haven’t I done it?

You know, like, and you kind of feel envious of, I guess, the success, but also the ideas like, oh, that was a great idea. Like, you know, if I read something, oh, wish I’d written that, because that just perfectly explain something or I just love it for whatever reason. So having those layers of being inspired by something and going, oh, that’s like that’s a real visual of where I wanna be in my career, or that’s a really great example of some beautiful way of describing something.

There’s that on the one hand, but then yeah, sometimes it can be completely demotivating, um, because you feel envious and, and you know, can kind of spiral into not such helpful way of thinking about things.

The Ether of Creative Ideas

Lyndon: Mm-hmm.

There is this idea with songwriting that when a song comes to, if you don’t write it or if you don’t finish it and get it out into the world, someone else will write it.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Or that the idea will, you know. Yeah. So basically there’s this idea floating around in the ether and it’s looking for a home.

And if you don’t provide it with one, someone else will. Yeah. And I came across a song that I was writing 12 years ago. So normally I’ve got all my songs sort of in one of three or four places, or five or six. I think I found a folder on Dropbox.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Something like that, which, and I sort of don’t really use Dropbox for song ideas, but I found one and it was nearly a complete song.

Breallyn: Wow.

Lyndon: And I was listening to it and I thought, this is actually really good. Like, why didn’t I do something with this?

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: But it had a melody, like it was such a strong melody and such an interesting melody.

And I thought you know, when you sort of go, is this an original idea or did I hear it somewhere else?

Breallyn: Oh, yeah.

Lyndon: Or is it just the fact that I wrote it that it’s resonating with me now, so I haven’t heard it since.

Breallyn: Right. Yeah. Yeah. But I—

Lyndon: —did have that feeling while I was listening to it.

I was like, I reckon I’ve heard this idea in the last few years.

Breallyn: Wow.

Lyndon: And it popped into my head the very thing that, oh, I did nothing with this, and someone else has.

Breallyn: Yeah. So the universe gave it to someone else kind of thing, or that sort of idea of yeah.

Lyndon: Yeah.

Breallyn: That, and then the song had to find a home. So it left your home.

Lyndon: Yeah.

And then I looked down and my coffee cup was empty and I thought, could this day get any worse? And it was only 10:00 AM. Oh gosh. Yeah. But anyway, so that’s, um, oh, now—

Breallyn: —you’re gonna have to record and release that.

Lyndon: Yeah.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. I guess that happens to everyone. So it is a real thing.

I don’t know about that idea of floating around the ether, whether that is a real thing. It feels like it is. It feels like that that is a thing. So many different songwriters talk about that.

Breallyn: Yeah. I think it’s certainly a thing within the arts. It’s like, yeah, even with writing, you’ve gotta write that story.

You’ve gotta give that plot, you know, the form of the story, because if you don’t, like that idea will be taken. And I often think when I come up with an idea, oh yeah, it seems so complete and obvious as soon as you happen upon it, that yeah, everybody else must be also.

Writing this exact same thing at the exact same time, or, you know, they, yeah.

Lyndon: Especially when it’s something that came easy.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: We always talk on this podcast about the grind and about, you know, how you can work and work and work on something and feel like you’re not getting anywhere, or that you’re wasting your time or you’re waiting for that breakthrough or you’re getting despondent about something.

But sometimes, and probably because of all that work and because of that journey, things just fall into place. And when that happens with me musically, whether I notice it at the time or whether I’m going back over things, over audio notes and whatnot. That’s probably, they’re probably the ones I question the most.

I go. It came too easy and often the easy thing is a really simple idea as well.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: And you go, it’s so simple. Someone else must have already done this.

Breallyn: Yeah. Yeah.

Lyndon: Or I’ve, it’s been in my head and I’m just regurgitating, subconsciously something that I heard either last week or yeah. Last year or whenever.

So sometimes that is enough to sort of stop you even going further.

Breallyn: Mm-hmm.

Lyndon: Yeah.

Breallyn: For sure. TS Eliot said, you can be inspired by someone’s work without having to be a carbon copy of them. That’s kind of speaking more to the inspiration of the work and then not like going too much into, oh, and I want everything about their life to be my life. Which, you know, which can come, like, I think especially as a younger, like when I was younger, I would’ve felt more of that type of admiration for someone like, oh, they’re so, you know, they’re doing this thing.

It’s so good. And also, you know, their whole life is together. I wish I was them. That sort of, like, you can be admiring about everything about them rather than just the actual thing that inspired you in the first place.

Lyndon: Yeah. And you see that with fans too, like—

Breallyn: —oh yeah.

Lyndon: Fans will often take something about, let’s say a musician or whatever about their lifestyle or their perceived lifestyle, and they’ll really try and sort of live it or emulate it. Like, I mean, like super fans.

Breallyn: Yeah. Yep.

Lyndon: And that’s like taking it a whole step further.

Breallyn: Yeah. That admiration yeah.

Becomes consuming and—

Lyndon: —yeah, because you are, you are seeing, you’re seeing not just what’s being created, but an imagined world of how that person’s life is perhaps.

Breallyn: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lyndon: And I mean, it does happen a bit. Yeah. When you’re inspired by someone like artistically as well. Yeah. And you wanna know how did they achieve that sound?

You know? So you might start getting, like, from a musician’s point of view, you might start trying to get the same gear as them, or record in the same way. And it yeah. It can really spill over into mm. Into maybe some areas that actually aren’t gonna help you and that it’s not gonna define your sound and—

Breallyn: —mm.

Lyndon: It’s the essence of what you are creating isn’t necessarily gonna be improved or seen just because you’re using the same microphone and—

Breallyn: —yeah.

Lyndon: Guitar or whatever as someone, yeah. So I don’t know whether you do that with writing too. Maybe like say, oh, they, every morning they get up at 7:00 AM and they make themself a cup of tea, and then they go into their writing room and then they, like you could emulate someone’s process.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: I guess. And it not work for you.

Breallyn: Definitely. I, and I’ve done almost literally that like yeah. Definitely been taught, taught by the writings of others and by even by lecturers that you know. Yes. Like. You have to write every day to be a writer, you know, to be a writer, you’ve gotta be practicing that thing.

And there’s all these kind of idealized stories about people like Roald Dahl, who, you know, would potter down to his little garden studio every day, and write between the hours of what, 10 and two or whatever and all that. And then I realized that my life particularly, well, almost for most of my life, really, I’ve not been able to do that because I’ve got children to care for and whatnot.

It’s actually impossible. And the people that can do that have, I don’t know, like a wife, like someone in the background doing all the other stuff for them, that’s literally what’s happened.

Lyndon: Well, I’ve got no excuse then, have I?

Breallyn: You’ve got—

Lyndon: —what am I doing?

Breallyn: I don’t know, but like, I mean, you know, the Roald Dahl thing, he would sit down to a cooked breakfast every morning, like somebody’s cooking that breakfast, someone’s doing those dishes, someone’s cleaning the house and remembering his niece’s birthday and to get a present or, you know, like all those kinds of things that need to happen.

So yeah, there’s all of that going on. I suppose there’s so much romanticism—

Lyndon: —around how things are created and how things come into being and—

Breallyn: —yeah.

Lyndon: And we love it. Like, as a society, oh, as humans, we love it. Whether it’s like how a car came into being. Yeah. Like—

Breallyn: —we love inspiration stories that yeah.

Lyndon: Yeah.

Inspiration and lifestyle and all these sorts of things. And I think, yeah, what’s behind most of those stories is someone that was just doing their thing in the way that suited them. And you know, they weren’t necessarily hung up on how anyone else did anything.

Breallyn: Mm.

Yeah. I think when we are looking at admiration, it’s good if we can then aspire to certain things. And I was looking up what does aspiration mean, which is a lofty or ambitious desire. And it literally comes from the word aspirate, which is to stop in such a way that the breath escapes with an audible friction.

So it’s literally the inspiration is to take one’s breath away. So when you’re like, your breath is taken away because you’ve seen something and you go, oh, like that type of inspiration is aspiration. Yeah. Which I think can be useful to us too. Like to aspire to certain things to go, I wanna be at that literary festival, or I wanna you know, record at that studio or work with that person, put out the album that I want to, or whatever it is.

Like to have that sort of aspiration and linking it to psychology, it comes from a place of growth mindset where you are inspired or aspire to be a certain thing. So you can see like that, you know, that thing that’s inspired you or that other artist that thing that you’re going for.

It’s like a roadmap that you can see it as, as like a way to get to that thing. So that can be a really helpful thing for progress. As long as you’re not feeling like it’s just a sign of inadequacy that you haven’t got there yet?

Greek Mythology and the Destructive Nature of Envy

Now Lyndon, have you studied much Greek mythology?

Lyndon: Sorry, what was that word before? Much—

Breallyn: —studied.

Lyndon: Uh, I haven’t, and last night we were watching the first episode of Gordon Ramsay’s new show, and my nephew said, oh, the Pantheon—it was—

Breallyn: —about a Greek restaurant.

Yeah. Yeah. He—

Lyndon: —goes, oh, that’s in Greece. And they’re actually in New York, we thought Gordon Ramsay had gone to Greece. Mm-hmm. So he was telling me, yeah, he—

Breallyn: —would know a lot about Greek mythology, I’m sure.

All right. Well let me just tell you a story then. The goddess of Discord, Eris, became envious one day ’cause she didn’t get a wedding invite and all the other gods and deities did.

So to get revenge, she got this golden apple and on it she inscribed it with these words “for the fairest” and she threw it into the banquet hall. So who was gonna claim this apple for the fairest. And it became like this disagreement essentially between three of the most powerful goddesses, which were Hera, Athena and Aphrodite.

So they were trying to figure out who was the fairest, which one was gonna get it. And eventually, I think Zeus decided that they would ask a mortal to make that decision. Who was the fairest? So they chose Paris.

Lyndon: Mm.

Breallyn: Now he ended up choosing Aphrodite because she offered him the love of the most beautiful woman in the world, which was Helen of Sparta.

So that was the bribe. She got the apple. But Helen of Sparta was married to Menelaus. So Paris ran off with her to Troy. And then that sparked the Trojan War, which launched a thousand ships and was a massive war in Troy. Mm-hmm. Um—

Lyndon: —and Gordon Ramsay, where does he fit into all of this?

Breallyn: I think he was on the first ship.

Um, but there’s lots of, obviously there’s lots of archetypal things in there with the fairest of them all and the apple and things like that. Like just, there’s so many tropes that come up throughout mythology and folklore and so on. And I was thinking about why is it that in Greek mythology, especially like these gods and so on, who are you kind of expect to be a little wiser and more controlled and so on.

They often act like the worst of us. They like they bring out their most base kind of emotions and act on them. And I think it’s because they are warning stories like they’re, they’re stories that teach us about the darker side of human nature. And allow people to explore all of those different emotions.

And this one’s obviously it’s, you know, sparked by envy and someone didn’t get a wedding invite and so then they’ve tried to make everyone else envious and have that disruption and so on.

Lyndon: So do you think when these, like, when that was written—

Breallyn: —mm-hmm.

Lyndon: So someone was writing about that?

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: It’s ’cause it was based on a real life situation that they witnessed or were part of?

Breallyn: I dunno, maybe it was, maybe it’s because they’re realizing or, you know, the stories sprung up through realizing how destructive envy can be if it’s left unchecked or, you know, like what happens if you act upon those thoughts, those, like you sabotage something because of that feeling of envy or whatever it is.

Yeah, I don’t know. It’s a way to explore those deeper, darker, not so pleasant emotions and not so, what’s the word? Like they’re the emotions that everybody has. But they’re certainly not celebrated. Everyone pretends they don’t have them more, though they’re certainly not, uh, seen as a good thing or yeah.

There’s no advice that, you know, yes. You should act on your most envious nature.

Lyndon: Mm. So who’s credited with, uh, creating these characters, Zeus and Aphrodite?

Breallyn: Well, there’s no one single writer. It’s mythology. It’s—

Lyndon: —I know, but like where, where did it start?

Breallyn: In ancient Greece in. Like—

Lyndon: —where I just, I don’t understand.

Breallyn: Well, it’s, it wasn’t always, like, Greek mythology isn’t like the Bible, like written by, you know, certain authors and—

Lyndon: —yeah.

Breallyn: Put into like it’s, it was more, much more shared stories. And so on the story of Paris basically seducing Helen of Sparta to go to Troy, that’s written about in a number of different books.

In Homer’s The Odyssey, it’s when Odysseus is coming home from that war. So yeah, there’s, it’s, there’s references everywhere about that.

Lyndon: So yeah, it’s nearly like at some point it’s accepted that those stories in mythology, like that’s actually what happened. Like, so that if then there’s references in written works beyond that.

There’s like this agreed upon history.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Which is pretty amazing. Like if, if before anything was written, stories, it was all just passed on verbally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And people just go, alright, like, this is a story, but that’s actually what happened.

Breallyn: Yeah. I mean, mind you, the Greeks have been writing things down for thousands and thousands of years, so

Lyndon: Mm.

Breallyn: Yeah. At some point the written language was developed and yeah. In different forms. These stories started to make their way into the common mm. Writings, I guess. Yeah.

Lyndon: Can you tell I’ve never done a history class.

Breallyn: Yeah. Well, you’d asked some good questions. I mean, it’s, you know, it’s a good thing. Yeah.

Lyndon: They also gave us souvlakis which I’m forever grateful for.

Breallyn: Mm-hmm. True and there should be more up in our area.

Lyndon: I know

Understanding Envy and Its Impact on Creativity

Breallyn: Envy is a feeling of discontent or mortification, usually with ill will at seeing another’s superiority advantages or success. I was once reading about a writer who at the time, it just struck me like, oh, how did she get so lucky?

She was an author of several books. So in the mornings she would write, and her other thing that she did, she would buy old abandoned historical homes, like from the 1800s. She was an American writer. And restore them. And that was how she sort of spent her afternoons pottering around restoring homes.

And I was just like,

Lyndon: What decade was this?

Breallyn: Like now?

Lyndon: Now,

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Oh,

Breallyn: And I was like, this, this is like the perfect, I, I would love to do those two things. Like I was just, I remember spending a couple of weeks just going, oh,

Lyndon: How can I have that life?

Breallyn: How can I have that, how did she create that? Like, yeah, that’s just, that sounds perfect.

So I was envious for sure at the, at that point. Now I’m just like, good for her. But yeah, actually I think, um, having the, like, controlling those feelings or not letting them get the better of you. Maybe that comes with age a little bit as well of a bit of maturity of not kind of feeling like,

Lyndon: But when it’s all too late maybe,

Breallyn: I don’t know, you know, like when you can just kind of yeah. Do the more you know, good for that person. Like, that’s awesome. Rather than feeling like your life is a failure and you’ll never make it because somebody else did it better first or whatever.

Finding Your Personal Quest and Purpose

Lyndon: It, it does seem to be that everyone, whether they realize it or not, or accept it or not, is on some sort of a quest.

And somewhere along the way, you lose sight of what your quest is and you sort of see someone else’s, and you get a bit envious of, of someone else’s life like you’re talking about. But like, that was their quest. And it’s really knowing what your own is.

And you’re right. Like sometimes you, you don’t work that out for a long, long time.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: What, what it, what it is or even what your strengths are. I think, um, sometimes. Your true nature can be hidden, or it can be suppressed just by other activities or things that you get involved in. Because like often, um, there’s not one thing that you are good at, and you can become known for being you know, maybe you could become known for being a really reliable, dependable friend.

Breallyn: Mm-hmm.

Lyndon: And everyone loves you and you know what I mean? Like, you just, you are that person, but yet you then might say, well, hang on a minute. Like, there’s gotta be more to it than that. Like, I’m well respected. I’m, I’m good natured, I’m generous, I’m all these things. But what is that burning thing that I.

Feel like I could or should be doing, or what’s my talent, what’s my, you know, there’s, so sometimes that happens as well.

Breallyn: Yeah. Well, a life is not just a narrative, that’s the other thing is our lives are so complex and made of so many things that yeah, we can feel like there’s this, there’s this one narrative thread that we’re trying to achieve something and need to go from height to height to height, but, um, that’s not really what, the life is composed of.

Lyndon: Yeah. Life’s more of a tapestry, isn’t it? It’s, and when we do go a bit deeper and if we, read an autobiography or. Whatever it might be. Or just look at how some work was created and what was happening at the time. You get this much sort of broader perspective and you see all those layers that were happening concurrently.

Breallyn: Mm.

Lyndon: And all the challenges and all the conflicts and just all kinds of things. And that’s, and then that reflects our life a bit more.

Breallyn: And

Lyndon: Then we go, oh, there was a lot of things that,

Breallyn: That were

Lyndon: Happening and that helped to sort of shape that. It’s not as simple as we may have made it out to be.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Competition and Community in Creative Industries

You know? I think sometimes too, I was thinking about the creative communities that we sort of move in and, you know, have things to do with, and I was thinking sometimes what happens is that. Your friends or the people you admire in the industry or the sort of works you’re reading or music you’re listening to, gigs you’re going to or whatever.

You’ve kind of, you’re in this, these sort of community of people, but not only are they your friends and contemporaries, they’re also like the competition. Sometimes you might be competing for grants or prizes or gigs or, spots, you know, in a limited number of publishing opportunities. So there’s all of that.

So if somebody gets an accolade or, puts out a good bit of work, or seems to get all the gigs or, you know, their, like their audience seems to be growing and yours isn’t, or something like that, that, you know, admiration and that you know, wanting them to do well because you like them and you, like their work and they’re a friend of yours, or you know, at least a contemporary of yours and you just kind of theoretically want them to do well in life and well, in their art, it can have a darker side of going, well, that’s the benchmark now, or that’s the competition that I’ve gotta strive against. Yeah.

Lyndon: Mm-hmm.

I think that there’s a natural competitiveness between people.

Breallyn: Mm-hmm.

Lyndon: Um, and, and sometimes it’s really obvious and sometimes it isn’t. I think it’s, it’s always there to a degree, but I think there’s probably a healthy competitiveness and one that builds up the community and bolsters the community.

And then on a personal level, it is encouraging and supportive of others.

Breallyn: Mm-hmm.

Lyndon: And I think there’s an unhealthy competitiveness that is self-serving narrow-minded. It’s egotistical, it’s fearful, and that doesn’t serve the community.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Um, so I’m not sure if this is exactly what you are getting at, because I think you are talking about feelings that come up when you see someone doing well and then you go, right, well now the bar’s been lifted.

Breallyn: Mm.

Lyndon: Or they’re getting accolades that I felt not that I should get, but I certainly could get those perhaps if I maneuvered and, and did things a little bit differently. So maybe that’s what I should be doing. Like you do sort of have all of these thoughts, but, um, I think. there’s also the idea of having a plan and you’d hear things like just do you, and sometimes you go, yeah, I’ve, all I can do is control what I’m doing.

And so you knuckle down and you do that. And then if you’re not sort of seeing any fruit from that, you might kind of start going, how long do I do this? You know, so and so over there is getting noticed and I’m not getting noticed and what needs to change? And so all this stuff comes up. But I think in terms of that idea of competition, like it would be a little bit foolish to think it didn’t exist.

Gatekeeping and Unhealthy Competition

You know, like I’ve experienced and I, I wouldn’t have even had a word for it back when I experienced this, but. Gatekeeping is something that comes to mind.

Breallyn: Yeah. I think, yeah.

Lyndon: So what I, what I’m specifically referring to is someone might get a gig and then they’re not sort of prepared to share any details about who to contact if you want to get a gig at the same venue.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: You know, that sort of stuff.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: So they’re, they’re not they’re sort of holding those cards tight to their chest.

Breallyn: Mm-hmm.

Lyndon: And, and you can kind of, so see like why someone would do that. You know, if they feel like that they’ve worked hard to develop that relationship or to, or maybe just they’ve, they’ve been doing a hard slog for a long time and they just don’t want to, um, make it easier for you.

Breallyn: Mm.

Lyndon: Or they. They don’t want to like let you know about something because then that opportunity might not come up for them next time, you know? Yeah. And I don’t think that, I don’t think that sort of behavior is helping the community as a whole.

Breallyn: No, I don’t.

Lyndon: And I’ve seen it done worse as well, where someone will have a bad experience with a, a booker or an agent or a venue and, and they’ll happily give you that person’s details.

And it’s nearly like they’re, you know, are they trying to sabotage, you

Breallyn: Know, throw sand in your eyes to, so they can keep getting ahead while you are messed up with this.

Lyndon: Yeah. So, so that’s, that sort of stuff does exist where people are kind of, playing the game too hard or playing a game that.

It shouldn’t exist. You know what I mean?

Breallyn: Yep.

Lyndon: Whereas I think, yeah, there’s competition there, but it can, you know, it’s not a bad thing. It should be something that is enabling, the community and enabling other, other people

Breallyn: Rather than yeah. Shutting everything down. Making it smaller.

Lyndon: Yeah.

Cultural Differences in Artist Communities

Breallyn: Yeah. I remember a friend of ours who’s a visual artist talking about this and she couldn’t believe it when she went to New York and she said, when, other artists or, gallery owners or whoever would see her, they would immediately introduce her to whoever else they were talking to and say, you know, here’s this person.

This is what they do.

Lyndon: Mm-hmm.

Breallyn: She does this amazing thing. This is her work. You should go see her installment, you know, all this different stuff. Whereas in. The Australian scene.

Lyndon: Mm.

Breallyn: Um, which is obviously much smaller. There’s a lot less opportunities, but you wouldn’t even be able to get, like she, you know, would go up to people that she knew other artists and that, and they wouldn’t even introduce one another.

Like they wouldn’t, they would literally not even try to

Lyndon: Yeah.

Breallyn: Make those connections. Like, hey, this is another artist, you know, they’re doing this also just not even especially out loud, in front of other people wouldn’t like, admire the work or, give any compliments or ask any questions or whatever.

It would just be people would go along to each other’s openings or, you know, show gallery shows, installations, whatnot, and drink the free wine, but not you know, do like, not sort of use those opportunities to like make, make that community stronger. And I think that is sad. I think that. Is not a, it’s not necessarily even a reflection on those individuals.

It’s a reflection on, on the community, on the lack of opportunities within the arts as well.

Lyndon: Mm.

Breallyn: The lack of, grants to apply for and places to exhibit your work and willing buyers who are looking for, art that connects with them and stuff like that. So, yeah.

Healthy competition can kind of thrive when there’s a healthy environment.

Lyndon: Yeah. Yeah. That’s probably true. Mm.

Transforming Envy into Action and Self-Reflection

Breallyn: Yeah. So I think not that I’d wanna give advice and, and, um, takeaways, but you

Lyndon: We definitely don’t give advice on this not advice show, do we?

Breallyn: No, we don’t give advice, but I think what the, well the reason that I wanted to discuss it is because what I do think is healthy is for creative people to understand and acknowledge the layers of.

Emotion and feelings that they’ll have about other people, about other people’s work. You know, it’s such a vulnerable thing to be creating something. So when you see other people doing something, even if you’re not deliberately trying to compare yourself, there is a lot of feelings that come up with it.

So I think realizing that thinking about, hey, why am I feeling that way? Why, you know, why do I feel envious? Like, why have I just suddenly told myself that I’m useless because somebody else is doing really well or whatever? Like just to think about why that might be and, turn it instead of like, I wish I could be them.

Or, you know, why am I so bad I can’t achieve that thing? Like, instead to say, what have they done that has got them to that point? Or what could I be doing that puts me in those circles or, you know, how can I apply for that thing or get that thing, um, yeah, just turn it into a more of an action rather than a reflection on how badly you’re doing.

Finding Your Authentic People and Community

Lyndon: Yeah. And you would’ve heard it said, you know, to find your people, like how important it’s to find your people. It’s a helpful idea, but I think there’s more to it than that. What I’ve discovered over the years is it’s not just about finding your people.

That’s just, that’s too broad. I think it’s about finding people. You like.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Like if you’re just finding your people, and you go, all right, this is someone who is into the same sort of music and they’re in the scene. And and, and they might be where I wanna be, you know, I can imagine myself being in their position or doing what they do in the next three to five years if you don’t get along.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Or if you don’t like them, or if you’re getting bad vibes from them, they’re not your people.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: That is true. They’re not your people. Yeah. And I think that’s, you know, there’s, there’s gotta be some sort of ability to, to be discerning and to be able to connect, what’s important to you and your soul and what keeps you centered and grounded.

Be able to, uh, connect with people on, on that level.

Breallyn: Mm.

Lyndon: As well. And I think when you’re just trying to find your people and you are trying to latch onto you know, something that’s a bit, something that’s bigger, feels a bit bigger than you, and, see people doing a particular kind of work and you wanna be involved.

It it’s easy to overlook some things that probably are a bit concerning that would you’d normally be concerned about or that

Breallyn: Yeah, that’s true.

Lyndon: You know, and you, you kind of go yeah, but, and you make excuse

Breallyn: Second-guess yourself. Yeah.

Lyndon: Second guess yourself. Yeah, it doesn’t generally lead to anywhere good or fulfilling.

Breallyn: Mm-hmm.

Lyndon: So, you know, so, um, yeah. I would suggest that it’s not just about finding your people, it’s about finding the right people and the people that, get you.

Breallyn: Yep.

Lyndon: And that you get

Breallyn: Yep. People that will challenge you, but always, have your back and be on, be on your side kind of thing. Be yeah. Mm-hmm.

Building Genuine Support Networks

Just on that point, I had a, a quote from Veronica Start, who’s a singer and a vocal coach, and she also has a podcast. She says, “jealousy and envy is a betrayal of the covenant we are supposed to have with our family and friends, that they’re supposed to be on your side and want good things for you.”

So if you have that, you know, community where. You feel like you should be fitting in, you feel like you should be, you know, you’ve found some people, but you actually don’t really feel that they’re on your side. They’re not challenging you in a good way, but rather than a, in a putting down way that makes you question, you know, your path and your work, then yeah, they probably are not your real friends and your real people, your real community.

Lyndon: I mean, that’s, that’s good. I find, um, I like this idea of family and, you know, finding your tribe and, and that the, the problem with, um, that idea though is a lot of us you know, we, the idea of family isn’t the same for everyone.

Breallyn: Yeah, that’s true.

Lyndon: So it makes it really hard to set your compass on, on what the. you know, what a good family or tribe, and the relationships within that, what that looks like.

Breallyn: Mm.

Lyndon: And so sometimes, you know, it, it’s, once again, it’s like, it’s a nice idea, but it has to be brought back down to the relationship, like between you and that one other person.

Um, yeah. And yeah, there might be a group of people or a tribe of people, but it’s like, you’ve gotta find the people within that. But she’s right though. In the sort of universal idea of what a family is.

Breallyn: Mm.

Lyndon: I guess I, I guess we do have an idea on what that stands for and yeah.

Generally you would be expecting, like to be supported, encourage lifted up.

Breallyn: Yeah, for sure. You know, so,

Lyndon: I was thinking too, when you were reading that out, about the, um, the recent happenings with a very well known singer and his family and his tribe

Breallyn: Mm-hmm.

Lyndon: And his retreats and musical retreats around the world and so on. And it’s like, and you could be part of that and you could be like, I found my family. It’s a very, you know, those experiences from all accounts are very uplifting. A literally family oriented, family focused, the, the word family is used all the time.

And you might find yourself questioning a whole lot of things at the moment, you know? So it’s unfortunate that, uh, that stuff exists and happens, but it does. And, uh, you know,

Breallyn: That’s very yes, intriguing, if, you know, you know, I suppose like that. Yeah, I, it’s, um, but yeah,

Lyndon: That’s that idea of finding your family, finding a tribe, and then it turns out to be something completely different.

Breallyn: Mm-hmm.

Lyndon: Is just more of a reason for you to be able to, sort of narrow it down a bit more and, and just have some solid relationships and, and build it from there.

Breallyn: Yeah. That’s good advice. Look at that at you giving advice.

Building the Pain In The Arts Community

No, well, drop us a line because, if you’re trying to find your tribe, your people, and you, want to connect, we are building a community here and we are interested in all kind of creators experiences and opinions and we are here to uplift one another. Share those genuine experiences.

No one’s here to compare and have bad competition, so please get in touch. Thanks for listening. We’ll catch you next week.

Lyndon: Talk to you then. Bye.

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