May 19, 2026 · Episode 68
54 Min, 39 Sec 

Summary

Who gets to be called an artist? In this episode, Lyndon and Breallyn explore how the line between “art” and “craft” was never really about skill — it was about who had access, and whose work was taken seriously.

Breallyn traces the history: from the gender and racial politics that elevated painting and sculpture while dismissing textile and ceramic arts, to the Persian rug weavers who sang patterns aloud to coordinate the work, to the extraordinary story of Black American women during slavery who encoded escape routes into quilts and hung them in plain sight — maps hiding in plain sight as “handicraft.”

The episode also covers a birthday getaway in rural Victoria that coincided with the year’s coldest day, a series of antique store disappointments, and a small moment of noticing that the whistling had come back.

Love this conversation? Get exclusive podcast episodes on our Patreon and support the show!

Transcript

Lyndon: There must be degrees of nerds ’cause I know, I know as much as I need to know, but then there’s people that just, they know everything.

Breallyn: You know as much as you need to know. You, you frequently, like daily, will spend about an hour telling me about some tiny component of some pedal or, uh-

Lyndon: I will not, that is a lie.

Breallyn: That is not a lie.

Lyndon: An hour a day- At least … about a component of a pedal?

Breallyn: Yeah, or, you know, the, the whatever chain of, of how you plug things in, and how it affects the overall sound, and then the what happens if you add or take away some other thing, and how do you problem solve it if there’s some sound in the-

Lyndon: I think maybe it just feels, ’cause it’s so boring to you, it feels like an hour a day.

More recently, I’ve been more, been more likely, I’m telling you about how many teeth there are on a circular saw blade- … and why you want, like, a minimum of 60 if you’re gonna be cutting plywood. Let me tell you about the kerf. I think that’s what it’s called.

Let me tell you about how you’ve gotta measure from the inside of the blade to the outside of the, uh, guide so that y- you know that it’s, 35 millimeters from the, from the cutting edge when you’re, trying to do a straight cut.

Breallyn: Jeez. Yeah. I mean, am I a privileged person because I am the recipient of your downloads?

Or should I be pitied because I, I have to be the human receptacle of all of your thinking?

Lyndon: I don’t know. I just keep telling you that all these things will be used to benefit you down the track.

Breallyn: Well, that’s good.

Lyndon: Yeah.

Breallyn: Well, you’ve actually got your first assignment from me. Because last night I, uh, had a chat to our son about the laundry and my vision for the laundry.

Lyndon: Mm.

Breallyn: For, like, custom cabinets, and bench top, and how everything should work, because currently it’s a bit of a jumble and difficult to work in. And he’s like, “Yes, that would be great. Makes perfect sense. We can do that.”

Lyndon: Well, what’s he saying we? Yeah. He told me the other day he hates working with wood.

Breallyn: No, he was into it. He’s already got designs in his head. He said he’ll draw it up, and- My gosh … between the two of you, I’m expecting routering, edging. What else you got? All these straight cuts that you know how to do.

Lyndon: I’ve got a speed square.

Breallyn: Ooh. Does that mean my laundry will be done quickly? And straight …

Lyndon: It’s got all these markings on it that are meant to help you make, uh, measurements and angles quicker, but I don’t really understand them all. I don’t trust them. Okay. it’s really hard to read. If only I paid three times the price- … and got one that was actually, you know- You can see … black marks on the, on the yellow, on the yellow plastic or whatever.”

Breallyn: It’s a young person’s tool.

Lyndon: Yeah.

Breallyn: Not designed for glasses eyes.

Yeah, yeah,

Lyndon: yeah. Mm. That actually has been a problem with, in the, in the garage with measuring and- Mm … well, basically with measuring and being exact is when you’re trying to, like, rule up something by the millimeter and allow for the, you know, the width of your lead pencil and all this sort of stuff.

Mm. And then I can’t actually even, properly see the mark. And I’m like, “Oh, I need my reading glasses,” and then I put them on and go, “But I can’t get too close.” So I’ve gotta sort of do everything at this, distance that you’d hold a book in front of your face if you were reading.

And, um- Mm … I’m like, “When did this happen?” Yeah. it’s the same with pedals. Like if, if I need to adjust a pedal or, or something at a gig, it’s like-

Breallyn: It’s a guessinggame …

Lyndon: I can’t, yeah. Oh, no. It’s a bit of a guessing game depending on the pedal. So anyway.

Breallyn: Can’t put it up to 11 just on a whim.

Lyndon: Well, you can. That’s all the way.

Breallyn: That’s all you can do. Yeah.

Lyndon: Welcome to Pain in the Arts, where the pursuit

of meaningful art meets the unpredictable demands of real life. You’re listening to Lyndon.

Breallyn: And Breallyn. Thanks for joining us today.

So you had a fun night last night. You went to see Beck- Mm … with Erik, who was one of our recent podcast guests.

Lyndon: Yep. Went to celebrate his birthday and-

Breallyn: Ah, happy birthday, Erik … and

Lyndon: see Beck, and, uh, yeah, it was good. It was, um, great night out. Had some Mexican beforehand.

Nice. yeah, down at St. Kilda. Haven’t been down there for ages, actually.

Yeah.

Yeah. Stepped into the Espy afterwards for a drink and realized how long it’s been since I’ve been to the Espy- Wow … which is pretty sad. Yeah. Like I knew it had been re-refurbished. Used to be there all the time.

Yeah. I hadn’t been there since its refurbishment. Yeah. I think this is what happens when you have kids. Yeah. You just, there’s this thing, like it’s not that I, we weren’t going out, but-

Breallyn: We couldn’t afford to.

Lyndon: You just don’t get to go everywhere like I think- You know- Yeah … certain venues, like just weirdly, uh- We are- For whatever reason

Breallyn: we are north of the city now. We used to be south of the city- Oh, that’s true … so the Espy was easier to get to. We’d often go to gigs and stuff there, but- Yeah … yeah … I suppose

Lyndon: we’ve been to more things on the northern side. Yeah.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Yeah. So, um, it’s, I mean, it, it definitely looks and feels completely different in I thought, “Gee, it’s quiet,” and then realized, oh yeah, it was a Tuesday night. Oh,

Breallyn: right. Yeah. It’s not

Lyndon: normal that you’d go out on a Tuesday night, but-

Breallyn: Yeah. Well, with a concert you gotta- Mm … take it when you can get it.

Lyndon: Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it was good.

I’ve been a, a fan of Beck since, oh, the early ’90s. Yeah. last night he was playing with I think it was the Philharmonic Orchestra, the Melbourne Philharmonic.

Breallyn: Yeah, wow.

Lyndon: And, uh, yeah, good gig.

Really good. Anyway- Mm … I love Beck. he’s great. Yeah. Everyone should listen to Beck.

Birthday Getaway Cold Snap

Lyndon: We went away last week for your birthday. We

Breallyn: went away last week. Yeah. That was a, that

Lyndon: was a big deal.

Breallyn: That was a big deal. It was a

Lyndon: big deal for your birthday- Yeah … and also a big deal just to get away and-

Breallyn: Yep. Fortunately, we chose the most uncharacteristically freezing day of autumn.

So, so strange because like- Sudden temperature drop …

Lyndon: the weeks before we went away have been really nice. Mm. Beautiful autumn days. And yeah. Did, does autumn start in April down here?

Breallyn: March, April, May.

Lyndon: Oh, March, April, May. Mm. Yeah, so we’d had weeks of mostly really nice sunny weather. The air’s a bit cold, but if you stand in the sun it’s beautiful.

Mm. And then other days, yeah, It might as well be spring. Yeah. so we had lots of days like that, and then,

Breallyn: And my birthday … we just happened to,

Lyndon: We had a bit of drama leading up to going away. and so we thought, I don’t know why, we were just like, “Oh, let’s just check the weather.”

Maybe it’s ’cause we were packing.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: What, what’s the weather gonna be like? And it’s gonna be like eight degrees and- Mm … we’re like, “Hang- what’s, what’s just happened?” So for the time that we were meant to be away it was meant to be raining every day, the highest temperature was gonna be 13 degrees Celsius.

And

Breallyn: this is Celsius for our listeners in other parts of the world where they- operate by Fahrenheit. But yeah, like 0 degrees is freezing, so 8 degrees is not very high. It’s cold- Well, yeah- Coldest …

Lyndon: and it was gonna be two degrees overnight. Mm. And it was beautiful where we stayed in this mud brick studio. Really nice, really peaceful. It was good, wasn’t it?

Breallyn: Yeah, it was lovely. Yeah. Yeah. Really gorgeous.

Lyndon: Proper linen.

Breallyn: Oh, so comfortable, and yeah, just this sweet little, yeah, studio apartment. And

Lyndon: we’ve always- Yeah … we’ve always sort of dreamed of building a mud brick place or a-

Breallyn: Mm …

Lyndon: possibly rammed earth or something like that.

Breallyn: we probably s- spent half an hour talking to each other about how good the air feels, and how quiet the room is, and- Yes … how you can tell the difference- You can. Like it’s- … between being in earth rather than in plasterboard and stuff.

Lyndon: Yeah. Yeah, 100%. It’s a completely different experience. Yeah.

Breallyn: It was really nice.

Lyndon: It was- But then we stepped outside –

Breallyn: A good reminder

Lyndon: … and went, “It feels a bit cold.” And people even in the town were saying, “It’s a cold one today,” and we’re just thinking, “Well, yeah, it’s, you know-” ‘Cause you live in the coldest spot. Yeah. Remember in the morning, like ’cause the day before we just happened to get a good coffee at, at a cafe.

Mm-hmm. I’d give it a shout-out, but I can’t remember what it was called.

Mm-hmm.

We decided to have breakfast at a different cafe, but we would get coffee at- Mm … the one that we knew had good coffee. so we had breakfast, and that was good, and we got relatively warmed up in there, We were discussing whether we’d get takeaway coffees or-

just sit down and have coffee. We’re like, “Oh, we’ll get takeaway coffees and walk around.” And it was like a 20 metre walk to the other cafe.

Mm.

And I was so cold by the time I got there. I was like, “Maybe we should not get takeaways.”

Breallyn: And the worst thing was I was like, “Yeah, let’s get takeaways,” ’cause I wanna go across the street to this awesome antique store that I knew was there, that was supposed to be open.

We were cold. Our coffees were getting cold, and the antique store was shut. We couldn’t even get in anywhere. It was awful.

Lyndon: And that night we were just looking up temperatures again, they have the felt like temperature- Mm-hmm, or what it feels like.

Breallyn: Yeah, yeah.

Lyndon: It felt like minus six, and we’re like, “Oh, that explains it.” Yeah.

Breallyn: Yeah. And

Lyndon: then we found out that pretty much all of Victoria, or at least Melbourne- Mm … and surrounds, was the coldest day of the year. Yeah,

Breallyn: it was a massive cold snap. But- Snow everywhere that doesn’t usually get snow.

Oh, yeah. It was, yeah. Yeah, everyone felt- Surprising … the cold. Yeah.

Lyndon: But- Yeah,

Breallyn: but that was

the m- the worst stuff that ha- like, I mean, what a- There was not a … Yeah, there was not much rain … we had a very peaceful time. It was actually lovely.

Lyndon: Can’t trust these 10-day forecasts and stuff. No. ‘ there was some rain, and most of it fell overnight, patches of it during the day when we got up to Lancefield.

Breallyn: had a secondary, uh, antique disappointment.

Lyndon: Can I just say, all my antique experiences while we were away were disappointments.

Breallyn: There was not- No, I, I love getting into the country- Oh, yeah … because you can often get, you know, just different

little pickups from op shops, thrift stores, antique stores, secondhand stores, all that sort of stuff.

You can find little shops that are a bit overlooked, and find little treasures. And I was like, “Yes, I’m ready for that experience. I’m ready to come home with some new treasures.” And we were in the town ne- near where we ended up staying, at a beautiful winery, and we’re looking through the town going, “Oh, yeah, there’s not, not a lot in this town.”

And then right at the end

Lyndon: There were some things. There were a few things.

Breallyn: Right at the end of the main street, which is not a very long main street, there was this massive old, like, Geo- like, what do you call it, Victorian building.

Lyndon: It was, like, four stories high. Yeah.

Breallyn: Huge colonial kind of thing. And what it said in massive letters across the top was,

Lyndon: I don’t know, like, an- Breeze Antiques. Emporium. Dream. No, it said- Breeze Dr- Breeze Emporium. It

Breallyn: said something like Antique Center of Victoria. Yeah, but it was- Or something like that … but it was

Lyndon: like, I don’t know, embossed- Like an an- … into the- Yeah … architecture.

Yeah. It wasn’t, like, just a, a sign hanging off of- No … a window or something.

Breallyn: So massive lettering. As we got closer, I’m looking through the windows, I’m seeing old bottles, and, lamps and stuff like that. I’m like, “Yes, I found it. I found, like, the, the jewel in the crown of the

antique stores.”

And then as we kind of got closer, I realized, “

Oh.”

Lyndon: You desperately wanted it to be open. I, I meant to go through- And like you could- … three different entrances … you could tell from the moon that this place had been closed for, for years. I’m looking

Breallyn: it up online going, “Should be open.” And you’re like, “

Lyndon: Get closer.”

Breallyn: Go, go round the back. “

Lyndon: Drive, drive around the other side.”

I’m like …

Breallyn: Yeah, so it was closed, and all the stuff was still in it, but it hadn’t been open for years. Yeah. And, um, yeah. Condemned probably. Massive disappointment, and I’m still wondering what was in there, ’cause like- Do-

Lyndon: who was more disappointed, you that it was closed, or when it was open, everyone turning up and having to pay $2 to enter?

Breallyn: Yeah, I think that was what made it close. The, the online reviews are like, “Never have I ever had to pay to look inside a shop.”

Lyndon: Well anyway, that antique store that you really wanted to go to in Woodend. Mm. so on our way home- The first, my first antique disappointment … we had 10 minutes to spare, and we got, went back to that town, and, and it was open.

Yes. I said, “Listen, call before we go. We’re not driving out of our way to go look at some antique store that was closed on a day that it was said it would be open.” And so you rang, and the number was disconnected. Yeah. So, in our wisdom, we went there anyway- We did … ’cause we had all of 10 minutes.

And I have to say, it did not live up to the hype.

Breallyn: I have been to that store before, and I was looking forward to going back, and I realized that when we did go through again, it had … Yeah. Yeah, I don’t reckon it- It wasn’t as good as I rem- Like, it, it had- Yeah … sort of just gotten a bit shit. I don’t think it would’ve changed at

Lyndon: all from the last time you were there.

I just think- Oh,

Breallyn: no, it had. It had gotten more, like, antique-looking stuff that was brand-new stock.

Lyndon: Like- Yeah, a lot of it …

Breallyn: lamps and vases and stuff like that, just in that- Yeah … um, older style of stuff. Mm. But no real genuine, like, old stuff. So yeah. What’s that store called? Disappointing. Shout out to the store.

Lyndon: Well, hey, um, The Providore in Lancefield, that was good. That was nice, yeah. That- That’s a great store. I don’t know if that’s exactly what it’s called, but that was, yeah.

Breallyn: Yeah, Lancefield Providore, I’m pretty sure is what it was called.

Lyndon: Probably.

Breallyn: We haven’t really talked about the main event that we went away for, which was my birthday.

Mm-hmm. And we had the best time staying at this beautiful winery, and then heaps of friends and family came for a party there, which was gorgeous, in this amazing room, and, oh, it was so nice. Um, I’m not gonna talk about it- Too long, because I just feel like all I’m saying is, “It was so great. Wish you were all there,” but you w-

you weren’t invited.

Lyndon: No, I invited them all. Oh,

Breallyn: okay. They just said no. Well, where were you guys? They said no.

Lyndon: they all had something on. All right. They actually all contacted me before invites went out- All right … and just said- “Do you not invite us?” … “By the way,” they just said, “By the way, just in case you’re thinking of planning anything for Bre’s birthday we can’t make it.”

Breallyn: Well, fortunately, my most loved- “We’ve got antique shops to go and visit.” My, my, uh, very loved friends and family came along, and we had a great time, so that was nice. And what a amazing success that we could get away for a couple of days, and plan a party, and have everyone, and Birdie was safe and loved at home.

And yeah, w- we wouldn’t have dragged her out to, uh, to go to that. She wouldn’t have enjoyed the interruption to her routine. So she didn’t come along. She was the, the one that was missing, but we were so happy that she was just able to be happy in her routine, and looked after, and allowed us to get away, so, so good.

Lyndon: And she was happy when we got back.

Breallyn: Yeah. I got some very big squeezy hugs and kisses. Mm. That was good too. Yeah. Yep. Absolute success, and something we didn’t think was possible a few years ago, so, yeah, it was great to be able to do that. Gotta enjoy these things when it happens, ’cause you never know.

Art vs Craft Origins

Breallyn: Mm.

Now, Lyndon, let me ask you this question. Mm-hmm. What’s the difference between art and craft?

Lyndon: Haven’t we done this?

Breallyn: we?

Lyndon: We, I’m pr- I think we’ve done this. There goes your episode. Yep.

The, uh, difference between art and craft. Well, in my younger years, I would’ve looked down my nose at craft.

Breallyn: Would you now?

Lyndon: Yes. Well, for no good re- for no actual reason that I could’ve put into words.

Breallyn: Perhaps I can help you with putting it into words.

Lyndon: Well, that, okay. You can help me if you like, ’cause my brain just stopped.

As soon as I, as soon as I s- heard that someone else was gonna do the thinking for me- … my brain just opted out.

Breallyn: Well, the, maybe the reason that it, it would’ve been something that you would’ve thought looked down on craft and look up to art but you wouldn’t really know why- Mm … is historically speaking, th- the difference between art and craft is down to misogyny and racism.

Oh, jeez. Did you know that?

Lyndon: Crikey. Yes, I did. Because, um, as I was saying before, in my earlier years- Yes … but, uh, I’ve had more years on this planet now, and I, I did actually read about that fairly recently.

Breallyn: Mm, yeah. Well, I thought we could explore it a little bit just because sometimes some of the artists that we encounter or the creative people, they might go, “Oh, do I, do I call myself an artist?”

Or, you know, s- trying to figure out- Mm … who’s an artist, who’s a creative, who’s a this, who’s a that, who’s a artisan. Like, these terms are getting redefined, I think, in the current landscape. But let’s have a little bit of a think about- Mm … why they, why the terms exist and how they came to be. So me being me, I did do a little bit more of a look in, and, and this has been something I’ve been thinking about for a while and looking into.

But for, for most of history, the choice to do art as a career has only been available to men. All the, you know, the respected art schools and just even the unrespected local art schools were closed to women. They, they couldn’t go there to learn things like painting, drawing, and sculpting. And those are the art forms that we have sort of thought of as high art and, like, the most pure forms of artistic expression.

It was the things that men were taught to do, and once those men had, , perfected their, their techniques and whatnot and, and got a body of work, the art world was ready to receive them and receive their work, and put it into the galleries, and talk about how good it was, and that kind of thing. And not to take anything away from that work because, it’s still brilliant.

It’s still wonderful work. You know, hardworking, talented artists they, they might have even been criticized during the day, but they, they made their work, so nothing to sort of take away from it. But the social systems that were set up were set up for their success as artists while making it also impossible for other people who were equally talented and visionary to have even access to the art world, let alone be , labeled an artist or labeled a visionary or whatever.

So I think it’s, it is important to be aware that that’s the history of what art was valued and described as high art or art at all, and what was demoted.

Lyndon: I know where I saw- Mm … where I saw something on this. I was watching- A recent Sting concert that he did with Dominic Miller-

Mm …

in a museum. I can’t remember where.

I’m gonna get it wrong. Amsterdam or Belgium. Let’s just say somewhere in Europe With a rich history.

Breallyn: A rich history of art.

Lyndon: Not, not a place that they’d normally have music- Right … in either, I don’t think so. So

Breallyn: more a visual art space?

Lyndon: Yeah, yeah. Paintings and I think maybe some artifacts and things. But there were some paintings in there that were originally uh, thought to be of this particular artist, but in actual fact it was a woman.

And y- Right … you know, years and years and years and years later they discovered that actually it wasn’t his work at all, it was this woman’s work. Mm. And that’s where that’s the l- that was the latest thing that I’d heard about, uh, this sort of thing, Mm. I guess, it was just assumed that it was his work- Right, yeah

back then. I don’t think it was anything particularly like a cover-up or whatever.

Breallyn: Oh, no, there, there was so many cover-ups in that way. Like, men would steal, you know, women’s work and pass it off as their own. Yeah. That’s, that’s what I said. Like, off generally. Yeah.

Lyndon: In this, in- So there was a lot of cover-ups

in this instance, I’m saying it may not have been. certainly, um, well, maybe it was. Maybe it was a cover-up and then everyone, no one questioned it.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: I don’t really know. I wasn’t there. Yeah. I mean, who’s to know?

Breallyn: Um, lots of people were to know. The women certainly knew.

Lyndon: I recommend watching that concert anyway.

Yeah. And then you’ll get a little bit of- A

Breallyn: little bit of art history … a little

Lyndon: bit of h- art history and hopefully you’ll actually remember the name of the artists involved.

Breallyn: Yeah. Well, definitely, yeah, even women working alongside men and doing, similar work, working, say, in the impressionist movement or whatever.

Mm. Even the artists of the day, the men artists who could see that their work was contributing to that school of thought and that, you know, that art form would still not value it because they were w- women. Um, so yeah, it’s obviously this was a prevalent thing throughout the world. It still is and the art world is no different to the rest of society.

The art that was available to women that was acceptable for them to do was much more connected to daily life, and a lot of it was textile art and ceramic art, those kind of things. So it was acceptable to embroider, to make clothing, to knit and weave and that sort of thing. Mm. Um, or to make tableware And vases and stuff like that from ceramics.

And these were art forms that women were encouraged to explore and refine and make their own and, you know, like, have a certain style attached to it because they were able to do those things while still in the context of completing all the domestic duties that were expected of them throughout their daily lives.

So they could be, raising children, keeping a house and that, and then at night when they’re exhausted and they’ve only got night lighting to deal with, they could be knitting or, you know, doing their ceramics or whatever. It could be framed as being, a good housewife to, to have nice home decorating, making gifts, like nesting or being a good hostess ’cause you’re creating all these things.

Mm-hmm. So that was the sort of art forms that were more acceptable for women throughout, you know, the last few hundred years.

So when we think about these different forms of art, is there a difference in the talent and the skill that it takes to paint or sculpt as opposed to making textile and ceramic arts?

Lyndon: No. Oh. No, I mean, the, the obvious answer is no.

Breallyn: Yeah. So it’s interesting how it’s kind of been demoted in our thinking. But I mean, painters, they’re obviously studying things like color theory, like the chemistry of the pigments and the, you know, the binders that they need to use. They study light and the movement of light and the sort of the physics behind that.

While textile art focuses on things like the, the s- structural, like, integrity and the, the tension and, and so on of the fabrics and all of the mathematical precision that goes into pattern and things like that. They’ve gotta understand fiber and sort of the geometry- Mm … of, of how a, you know, a piece of textile is put together.

So it’s, like, completely different skill set, but all of that understanding the mastery behind it is, is equally as, like, complex.

Lyndon: Tell you what’s blown my mind. You’ve seen those videos of the- older women, like almost elderly women, and they’re doing that really fast hand movements of creating uh…

What are they doing? They’re, like, weaving. Have you seen that? They’re- Is it making

Breallyn: lace? Like having- Making lace … yeah, moving the little paddle things. Yeah. Yeah, like, that is incredible. But moving them at,

Lyndon: like, lightning speed. Yeah. And it looks, to the untrained eye, mine and yours, you’re looking there and it just– You just think, th- the speed they’re moving, it just looks so haphazard that h- how on earth can they keep track of what they’re doing and, like, what thread is going where.

It’s incredible- Yeah … that, that… But anyway, so what you’re talking about- It’s, yeah, really interesting … it’s got me thinking about… cause I don’t think anyone would question the skill that’s needed for doing, that kind of a thing.

Breallyn: Mm.

Well, people have que- questioned that.

Like, I think that’s the thing, is people have gone, “Oh, it’s just, just something they do,” or whatever. But- Yeah, but- … without thinking through how they do that.

Lyndon: Yeah, but I think with any art, like, the point isn’t for someone, you know, who’s enjoying it. The end result isn’t for them to be thinking about how complex it was or what went into it.

You’re just enjoying it for what it is or the purpose, right? Mm. So whether it’s a crafty thing like a, a lace tablecloth, or whether it’s a painting on the wall, you’re enjoying them for different reasons. But why was painting… why can you go to university and learn about painting, and, like, why are there galleries and stuff?

You know what I mean? Like- Mm … at what point did it start that actually put one thing on a pedestal above something else? Mm. Because it–, like, if, if you think about, like, every major city has probably got a gallery, and most of the population aren’t going to a gallery expecting to see textiles on the wall.

Mm.

or, fill in the blank, you know. Mm. They’re expecting to see paintings. And yet, at the same time, how often do people see a painting and go, “Yeah, I could’ve done that”?

Mm.

You know. Yeah. Or, “My kindergarten,” Yeah. “

My, uh, toddler could’ve painted that.” So I think even within that medium a lot of people are kind of judging it just, based on the end result and going, “I, I,” I don’t understand it.

I don’t think it took much talent at all.” Yet these institutions that we’ve got- Are saying, well, this is actually, one of the highest forms of art expression, and ‘ you could sort of argue the same thing with dance. Mm. You know? Yeah. Where people look at dance and go, “I don’t…

You know? Like, what do I do with this? Can’t take the dancers home and, and get them to dance for me just… You know what I mean? You can’t just put it on your wall, or you can’t play it like you can- Mm … a, a record. Well, well- So it’s like- Yeah. And

Breallyn: again, sort of for- some forms of dance like ballet and so on it’s- Well-

seen as that’s the higher form than street dancing. And-

Lyndon: Well, or, or even like some contemporary dance- Yeah … you know? Or interpret- let’s say interpretive dance. I think that’s for that’s another one where it’s harder to understand.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Or h- it’s harder to appreciate perhaps. Yeah. I have no idea what my point is except that I think it’s not about how much skill something requires. ‘Cause, , you should be able to listen to music and it’s not about… You’re not thinking about how many hours someone had to practice in order to play that line or to, I don’t know. Mm. I think the process, I find the process of art fascinating, but I know that I might be one in 10 people that do or- Mm … I don’t know what it is.

But, I like to switch off and just enjoy art and enjoy music. But, You know, some people like to watch David Attenborough and that’s their thing. I like to watch, like, how an album was made or- Mm … h- you know, that sort of stuff. Yeah. I guess you’ve gotta search if you wanna find places that are saying, “Hey, we’ve got this other art,” or, “We’ve got craft.”

Like what we would consider craft. Mm.

Breallyn: Yeah. And I, I think, as I said to start with, the terminology of different things is a little more up in the air now because we’re- All getting a little bit more aware of, why should somebody be called an artist and a- another person who’s sort of equally visionary and skilled in their own form is not, you know?

Mm-hmm. So- Yeah … yeah, I, I think it’s worth asking the question and, and trying to find out, like, are we on a, some shifting sands with, with the words.

Singing Persian Rug Weavers

Breallyn: I wanted to, um, talk about a couple of textile art forms that just kind of, for me, I think highlight how incredible some of the things that we would term like craft or artisan work is, you know, just so extraordinary.

Um, one is called, and I’m gonna butcher the name, I’m afraid. It’s I would pronounce it Naqsh-ekani, which is the Iranian pattern singing. You might have seen this. It’s, it’s, um, yeah, there’s a few reels and stuff going on about it at the moment, but these are like the textile weavers, like the carpet weavers from Iran who have got a technique that combines singing with weaving.

Mm. If you think about what we would usually call Persian rugs, they’re the, the rugs that these- That you can

Lyndon: never buy at 100% of their price. Yeah, because they’re

Breallyn: always half price in Melbourne or whatever. Yeah.

Lyndon: So- Sale, sale, sale So

Breallyn: these patterns well, I mean, actually thinking about Persian rugs.

Lyndon: Mm.

Breallyn: Back in when we were growing up, I don’t know about in your circles, but in my sort of-

Lyndon: Redneck circles …

Breallyn: very, well, suburban- Yeah … you know, working/middle class, you know, upbringing-

Lyndon: Mm …

Breallyn: Persian rugs had a bit of a bad name. Like, you could buy them down at the market.

Lyndon: Mm.

Breallyn: And occasionally somebody would.

Like, you know, someone from your school or whatever, they’d buy a Persian rug, and they’d have it in their living room.

Lyndon: Mm.

Breallyn: And it just would clash horribly with, like-

Lyndon: Yeah …

Breallyn: their Copperart lampshades and, like, the Laminex benchtops and the orange pine kitchen cabinets. Was it real Persian, or was

Lyndon: it genuine imitation?

Breallyn: Well, I think that they probably were back then. Like, actually- From a market? … they would’ve bought them from markets in Turkey or whatever and, and bought them home. Okay. You know, like the importers would’ve, would’ve done that. And so maybe they weren’t the f- the finest quality work, but- Where is, where is

Lyndon: Persia these days?

Iran. Persia is Iran. Yeah. So where did they bring them back from? Turkey?

Breallyn: Iran, Turkey, like, well, ar- around those areas. Like, obviously, you know, there’s- Okay … the Middle Eastern culture. Like, yeah, there’s-

Lyndon: I always thought of, um, Persian rugs as being a magic carpet. Like that it’s something- Oh, yeah … that Aladdin would ride on.

Yeah.

Breallyn: Definitely. Yeah. That would’ve been the aesthetic.

Lyndon: Yeah. But

Breallyn: I don’t know, the way that it, they would look In an Aussie home, w- it was too big and too loud, and the colors were strange, and it was- What are these

Lyndon: rugs here in the studio?

Breallyn: Yeah, they’re definitely like the Persian rug-

Lyndon: Esque

Breallyn: esque.

Lyndon: Do you reckon this one- Yeah … is? What about that other one there, that blue and, blue and- Yeah … grayish one? Inspired

Breallyn: by that style. Inspired by. But yeah.

Lyndon: Okay.

Breallyn: But in, um… If you look in traditional, like Iranian homes or, like larger cultural buildings, like a town building or whatever, that would a- actually have these i- incredible examples of- Mm

the carpets and rugs, all of a sudden everything makes sense. Like the- Mm … you know, just the, the way that, like the buildings are formed- The scale … the colors. Yeah. The scale. The scale, the what’s, what is there and what isn’t there in terms of- Mm … other decoration, even the landscape.

Like everything talks to one another, and all of a sudden these rugs are like the jewel centerpiece of a room, and they would literally be places where people would gather and sit around to eat, drink, you know, converse and, and to be with one another.

And they’d have this incredible f- you know, floor rug like laid out or, or even a hanging- Mm … um, tapestry hanging up on the wall that they’d be able to be looking at, enjoying, experiencing over time and like looking at the intricacy. So yeah, it was pretty amazing. they’re rugs that are so dense with like pattern and imagery, so you think about like the, the kind of lower l- layer of them, if you were th- to think of it as, as that.

Lyndon: You mean the layer that’s closest to the floor?

Breallyn: Like, I guess so, but like, obviously with a rug, the whole thing is a flat piece. But if you think about pattern-wise, there’s often a base color or pattern or even a geometric pattern on the bottom, and then above that will sit another pattern, and then another one, and then on top of that, a more flowery,

Lyndon: Pattern

Breallyn: yeah, like a pattern or like think vine leaves and flowers on top of a geometric pattern. So th- that’s sort of how they look.

Lyndon: So they’re a bit 3D. They’re

Breallyn: a bit 3D in the look of them. And the edges will have a different border pattern an edging binding, and that kind of thing. But if you also think about how are these rugs woven, like they’re not done like a painting.

A painting you could paint the base layer and then layer up the pattern on top, and then when that dries, you’re going in with more detail, and then you’re going in with the vine and the flower pattern on the top. It can’t be done like that for a rug. You’ve got to literally weave it from one side to the other.

So you’ve got to think about all those different layers of pattern- All at the same time and get it right line after line after line. Like, it- Mm … it must be incredibly, like, uh, uh, mental gymnastics to do that.

Lyndon: Can I ask you a question? Mm. ‘Cause you seem very excited about this. I’m into it. Yeah. Are you about to start weaving?

Breallyn: It might be my new hobby. Because

Lyndon: if you’re gonna be one of these singing weavers- … I’m really afraid of what, what the rug’s gonna look like.

Breallyn: No, I, I couldn’t do it in a million years. It’ll be a really good, like… It’ll be

Lyndon: a really good, rug for one of those staircases in the- What’s that, what’s that visual of the stai- never ending staircase?

That’ll be your rug if you’re singing- Oh, I should … while you’re making it. Oh, it’s going over here now.

Breallyn: Uh, no, I

couldn’t do it. I couldn’t do what these incredible artists do do. And I, I’m, I think it’s amazing that what developed over this very, very long history of this work, which is like a two and a half thousand year, history of these, these carpets and rugs being woven.

Lyndon: I just, I just can’t help- So- … but think of day one. Where, you know, there’s the guy with the vision of like, “Right.” Like, it’s ladies, isn’t it, generally would do it? Well,

Breallyn: I think in Iran it was, it was both men and women- Okay … that would make it. Yeah, yeah. All right. Okay. So

Lyndon: there’s, like, the rug/choir master,

who’s worked out all his melodic instructions to make sure that the right pattern got weaved all the way through. And can you imagine, like, having to go, “Hang on a minute. We’ve gotta get rid of, gotta get rid of Rhonda” “… ’cause she’s just not getting it.”

Breallyn: She can’t sing in tune- … so she can’t weave the rug. Oh, I don’t know.

Whatever. It’s just, uh- Like, just, I just think back to

Lyndon: day one, like, it’s funny, like, yeah, two and a half thousand years. It’s like at some point, like, with something that it feels so, like, complicated, it’s like it would’ve taken literally surely, like, years to get it right. So, like, those- Mm … early years, man, you needed to just stick to your vision, didn’t you?

Yeah. “No, I’m telling you. Like, this is the way we’re gonna do it.”

Breallyn: I know. It,

it does- “We’re gonna sing

that” …

it definitely speaks of- I mean, it’s great when you watch it- … something that, yeah … and you see them doing it. Oh. It’s- Just incredible … but I love the- They’re singing the pattern like they te- like they’re literally remembering a song that will tell them which color to put in which, stitch, you know, all of that.

But this is true of like- Amazing … many

Lyndon: cultures, isn’t it? Of where- Yeah … they have a history of singing while they work. Yes. But it’s not just to while the time away. That’s right. Yeah. It’s very, uh, you know, it’s very de- It’s very intentional. Yeah … intentional, very deliberate. And, um-

Breallyn: And, and also, like, it, it serves a number of purposes too- Mm

because the singing also it’s having everybody- connected into making the piece and sort of centering them- Mm … uh, like emotionally and, and mentally as well. Like, to get into that rhythm and to calm the nerves- Yeah … so that they can get into that creative state to make the peace.

Whistling and Nervous Systems

Breallyn: Well, air

Lyndon: through the lungs and through the body, and sound is, um, really important.

It’s great for- well, you were saying calming your nerves and that know, just humming is really good for you.

Mm.

I don’t know, you may have noticed I often whistle around the house.

Breallyn: You know, I, s- I do notice that. And do you know what I ha- like, what I have noticed? I don’t even do it

Lyndon: consciously.

Yeah. What have you noticed? That you do. That the b- melodies are beautiful?

Breallyn: Yeah, the melodies are beautiful. And well, you know, when you weren’t whistling- Mm … was when we were having some really dark years with Birdie’s health.

Lyndon: Mm.

Breallyn: And I’ve noticed you humming, whistling, singing and that’s increased over the last couple of years, year or two.

Mm. As the whole, the nervous system of our house has re-regulated slowly.

Well, that’s

Lyndon: a good way of putting it- And, yeah … ’cause it has been of the home- Mm … hasn’t it? Do you think I took it too far when we were having our, um, buffet breakfast at the winery? Because everyone’s there… Mind you, you gotta… Like, and, uh, okay, this is rude of these places that go, you get a fr- you know, with your, uh, dollars that you’ve shelled out for accommodation.

You know, and if you shell out a little bit more or whatever, you’ll get the, not just the continental breakfast, but you’ll get the buffet breakfast. But it’s only on between 7:30 and 9:30. And it’s like, I want a s- I’m on a sabbatical. I wanna sleep in. But but you know how much I love breakfast. I dr- I dream about breakfast.

Breallyn: I, I know. Oh my gosh.

Lyndon: And…

Breallyn: Well, what I do know is that the second

morning we were staying there, I w- I woke up at, at like, I don’t know, 6:30 or something like that, and I was just, I went on my phone, was reading my book. And about 15 minutes later, you suddenly-

Or practically sat bolt upright. And you were suddenly awake, and you went, “Do you have to have a shower so we can go to breakfast?”

Lyndon: I think I’d been awake since 5:00.

Breallyn: But I certainly felt the pressure that, like w- Not only were we gonna make it to breakfast, I was gonna be having to line up outside 15 minutes before it opened.

Lyndon: Yeah. Well, I was like, “Uh, we’ve got a one-hour window to have breakfast” And then while you were getting up, I looked it up again.

It was like a two-hour window. Yeah,

Breallyn: that’s right. I was awake way too early.

Lyndon: But so I guess the next morning the- You know, sort of understood what the process was and what the buffet breakfast involved and all that sort of stuff. How good the coffee was.

Breallyn: But yeah, what, you were whistling while you’re getting your buffet? I

Lyndon: was whistling. It was like- You were get excited. No, I was sat, it was when I sat down and I was just, you know, did a bit of a loud whistle in that- … very ambient-

Breallyn: The carriage house. Very ambient

Lyndon: room, and went, “Oh.” “Oh, better not do that.” What else was weird is the couples were sitting opposite each other, looking at each other eat, and we chose to sit next to each other to look at the view.

But between us and the view were the couples eating and looking at each other. That was a bit awkward to- So now we’re, like, staring at people.

Breallyn: I was trying not to look at people while they’re eating. Uh, it’s n- I was like, “

Lyndon: Uh, excuse me, there’s, you got a little something on your…”

Breallyn: Honestly, nothing can turn me off eating more than looking at other people eating.

Like, no. I was all about the view.

Quilts as Secret Codes

Breallyn: another, place in which art has been degraded to, like, a nothing craft, and where that was used to the advantage of the people was something that is really incredible. And, and I encourage everyone to go and look up, there’s documentaries on this.

There’s, there’s all sorts of places where you could really find out the history, and I’m not gonna do it justice, but I will just touch on it. It’s the Black American quilt code that was operating when when Amer- Black Americans were under slavery, especially in the Southern states.

Lyndon: Mm-hmm.

And if you, if you don’t really know anything about this, a, a very short overview is that while there was the Underground Railway, which was the sort of system where people were helping one another to, to escape slavery if their, if their situation became such that they just went, “I’ve gotta get out,” or they were trying to escape, they would be assisted by others on the road and other, you know, families and households and so on, that could give them directions, give them shelter, you know, send them on their way to the next place.

Lyndon: So not a real railway.

Breallyn: No, it wasn’t a real railway. It was people walking from place to place. Why’d they call it a railway? Because there was stops and, like, a, a certain direct- More, more like a bus route … like a, direction. I guess so. Yeah, it was just termed that. I don’t even know if it was called that at the time, but that’s, I guess, what it would be referred to as often now.

And again, I know not nearly enough so I’m not gonna do it justice. But It was often African American women would- would be weaving quilts or stitching quilts from fabric, but they would use the patterns to communicate life-saving information. So they weren’t just like rugs or blankets just with, you know, different, like, traditional stitches.

Mm. They would be visual maps that they would hang out on, like, their fences or their porches, like, as if they’re just airing out the blanket. But they would be giving information with tho- like, literally hanging up a map, and the bounty hunters and the, the police and any- anyone looking for escaped slaves-

Lyndon: Mm

Breallyn: would not even realize that was happening because they weren’t looking at these rugs- Mm … like they were information. They were just looking at it like it was a- So smart … a, yeah, a Black woman’s handicraft. So right under their noses, this incredible information was being given, and there’s was some different stitches, and like there’s, there’s many, many of them, but a few of them.

Quilt Patterns Explained

Breallyn: One was called the monkey wrench, and this was a, a pattern that signaled to people to start gathering their tools, like their physical tools and mental sort of preparation to get ready to prepare for the journey. Like that, and that was often the f- like the first quilt that would be hung up, like, “Hey, gather your things, we’re getting ready.”

There was the North Star pattern, which was a navigational instruction, so it was saying, “Hey, follow the, the North Star toward Canada.”

Lyndon: Mm.

Breallyn: There was flying geese, which would indicate direction, so depending on which way, like the flying geese shape, like the triangle- Mm … point of the shape was, would let you know which way to move. And there’s also one called the drunkard’s path, which was like a winding, zigzaggy pattern to say, “Hey, don’t go in a straight line.”

You need to travel in different directions to avoid tracking, ’cause there’s the danger, like there’s- Mm … the trackers are around kind of thing. So there was all these different codes and messages given just through- Through quilts … yeah, the quilts being h- hung up. ‘

Lyndon: Cause I guess it would be a bit obvious if you just hung up flags.

Or- Or like they do on the sidelines at AFL games, you know, like where, a, there’s a, a team instruction on a big board and If a shoe is held up, picture of a shoe, they know what that means. Yeah. Or the, a lightning bolt, they know that- Yeah, lightning it means something to the whole team. Yeah. It’s like, that would be pretty-

Breallyn: Like two minutes to go in the quarter … it, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Lyndon: It’d be pretty obvious, wouldn’t it?

Breallyn: Yeah, that’s right. Well- So they’ve done it in quilts … they did it in quilts, and they did it for years. Mm. And it, it wasn’t picked up, so- So what are the messages-

Lyndon: maybe … in the quilts that your mum’s done for you? It’s like, get out now.” “Leave home.” “He’s no good.”

Breallyn: I don’t know. My mum really got into quilting.

Lyndon: “There’s a car arriving for you.” “Midnight Sunday.”

Breallyn: Here’s some emergency money stitched into this section.” Yeah. Yeah.

Lyndon: All right. Yeah. Gotta find all these quilts now.

Wow,

Breallyn: we do, I know. There’s

Lyndon: hidden messages in them. So amazing, yeah.

Breallyn: Yeah, my mum did get into quilting in a big way. My mum-

Lyndon: Yeah, now I know why … is

Breallyn: into crafts, like, all throughout her life. She’d get really into something, and she would do it to an exceptional standard. And she’d be, like, into it for, like, two years or something.

She’d, all of a sudden, she’s got all the equipment, she’s doing it every night, she’s got a group, you know, a craft group around her doing it. Mm. And then all of a sudden she’ll reach a point where she’s like, “I’m done.” “I’ve, I’ve, I’ve done all that I can do.” Mm. “I’ve reached the, the best I can do with it, and I, now I just don’t wanna do it anymore.”

Mm. And then that’s it. She’ll never do it again. So yeah, quilting was one of them. And I’ve got my eye on the best of the quilts that I a- always loved, but I think our nephew also has his eye on it. So there’s gonna be, there’s gonna showdown.

Yeah.

Lyndon: Do you reckon there’s messages then in the quilts that, boomers have in the back of their sedan?

So when you’re driving along, there’s normally, like, some sort of quilt draped over the, the back You know, underneath the back window and there’s normally also like tissues

Breallyn: Oh And maybe

Lyndon: a hat

Breallyn: Like a crochet Oh, I guess that is a crocheted- Yeah, a crochet … kind of crocheted

Lyndon: rug, isn’t it?

Breallyn: Yeah, crochet. Yeah. Remember that. Used to see that a lot.

Lyndon: You don’t, obviously don’t see it so much anymore. Yeah. But, uh, there’d be, yeah, the crocheted rug in the back of the car.

Breallyn: True, yeah.

Lyndon: Hmm. Wonder what it meant, “Meet me at the bowls club.”

Breallyn: Yeah. So no. So that was just, yeah, one, one more example of where you know, a, art form which had many layers to it because obviously it was as political, it was survival, it was all these things Mm-hmm

it was completely overlooked because in this case, the oppressors didn’t value it enough to see that, hey, this could be something more than what we, we, we just overlook it. We don’t even see it. We- Mm … it’s so, so much part of the landscape. Yeah. And yet, there they were defying those oppressors and being, brave enough to literally hang a massive banner out the front of their house- Yeah

that was quite honestly saying, “I am part of the Underground Railway. I am giving directions. You know, here’s what to do,” and they were doing it in plain sight and, and it wasn’t recognized. I couldn’t

Lyndon: imagine if someone ever spilled the beans on that. Yeah. That whole thing would’ve collapsed.

Breallyn: Yeah. Yep.

Lyndon: ‘Cause all it would’ve taken was one person to say, “Oh yeah,” like, “This is what the quilts are for,” and then anyone that dare- Mm … hang a quilt out- Yeah … the house would probably be burned down or- Yeah. And, yeah … you know what I mean? I know. Who knows what would happen. I know. But- Yeah … so everyone would’ve had to be so tight-lipped.

Yeah.

Breallyn: Yeah. And we’ve

Lyndon: had kids. And, and even under pressure. We know how leaky young kids are. Yeah. How do you keep them in check? Yep. You know? That’s right. Right. Or you wouldn’t tell them. You just couldn’t tell them.

Breallyn: Yeah. Yep. I don’t know. Don’t look at our- I don’t know how they did it … and they’d be like, “Don’t

Lyndon: look at our quilt.”

Yeah. It’s, there’s not a message in there. There’s no message in there. That would’ve been our kids. Yeah. They would’ve got us killed.

Breallyn: So I don’t know how they did it.

Amazing. Yeah. Yeah.

Reclaiming Artist Terms

Breallyn: So to wrap up, the, the terms like artist, artisan, and craftsperson- Mm … I think we’re currently at a point where they’re, they’re terms that are less ascribed to other people and more terms that each artist can decide for themselves. Like, they might, you know, decide, “Oh, I’m an artisan ’cause I’m really focused on the ma- like mastering the technique,” you know?

Mm-hmm. “And the production of this like high quality functional type item.” Mm. Whereas an artist might go, “I’m an artist because I, I am a painter and I have this kind of aesthetic intellectual r- reason for this painting. Mm. Um, and a craftsperson might be going, “Well, I’m working in a, like a traditional medium like weaving or woodworking.

And, I’ve established these patterns of way, ways of doing things, and it’s more aligned to just being a, a crafter and a craftsperson.” So I don’t know. I think people are choosing their, their terminology more intentionally.

Lyndon: Mm. And,

Breallyn: and also I think what’s happening more is that we’re starting to…

Like knowing the history, knowing that things that have been more politically motivated or motivated by gender bias and things like that, motivated by race, and motivated by a cultural standing and you know, just even economics.

We’re able to now reassess those terms and figure out what, what language is appropriate now and, and what can we f- sort of look in retrospect, how are we gonna see some of these craftspeople? Are we gonna see that they were artists all along, they just weren’t given that title at the time? But also that the terms craftsperson and the term artisan, and that those terms are now more respected and elevated as well to meaning an equal standing alongside the term artist.

Mm. Because you know, we can recognize that there’s the same level of artistry in those things and the same level of skill and, you know, all that dedication to the craft. It, it sort of stands alongside. So it’s just a different term. It’s not like a hierarchy of terms perhaps anymore.

Lyndon: Mm.

Interesting.

Breallyn: Yeah. That’s what, that’s what I think we’re, we’re heading towards anyway.

Lyndon: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess we’ll find out.

Breallyn: I guess so. So- I think,

Lyndon: um, a lot of that stuff… in terms of like an understa- an appreciation and understanding of, of something that’s always maybe been considered craft and hasn’t been elevated to, you know, a more sort of universal understanding of or appreciation of it being art is like in smaller circles or in family lineages or…

It’s like you were saying before how you and your nephew are both coveting the same- … you know, the same quilt and there’s obviously memories and emotions tied up in that, but there’s also an understanding of what went into it and-

Mm.

And the work that was involved ’cause you were around when it was happening.

And it’s the same with, like, someone in your family who might be, you know, their hobby just might be really skilled and they’ve been working at it their entire life, and they’ve built certain things and the family group appreciates it, or perhaps the community might appreciate it.

Mm. Yeah. You know? Like, um, the local sculptor or something like that- Mm … that’s, that has got zero notoriety but they’re sort of renowned in their area-

Breallyn: Yeah …

Lyndon: or in their community.

Yeah. So I think there’s sort of different levels of it, I, I guess.

Breallyn: Mm. Yep, definitely.

Lyndon: Um, mm.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Well, there ends my topic for today. What are you gonna bring?

Breallyn: Thanks for listening today. Let us know what you think. What are you calling yourself, when you go about your creative work, or how do you see the other artists and craftspeople in your area?

And maybe what your reflections are on, how the terminology shapes the culture and how it’s changing as we get more aware of the history of things. Thanks for listening again.

Lyndon: See ya. Bye.

Want more deep dives into the creative process? Our Patreon supporters get exclusive episodes and behind-the-scenes content.