July 28, 2026 · Episode 77
1 Hr, 10 Min, 01 Sec 

Summary

What does a creative household actually look like from the inside, when you’re the kid?

Lyndon and Brea sit down with their son Gray Wesley, drummer for Melbourne band Mindstain, for a conversation that’s part origin story, part honest look at what gigging really involves at 19, and part family reunion conducted in front of a microphone.

Gray talks through how he got back into drums after years away, how he put out a Facebook post looking for bandmates and ended up co-headlining Revolver Upstairs as his first gig. He walks through the unglamorous realities of gigging: the hours of load-in and load-out that sandwich 40 minutes on stage, the variables that change for every venue, and the math that means most gigs net each band member about $20 before petrol.

When Brea asks what it’s been like growing up watching his dad navigate a creative career, Gray’s answer is both wry and unexpectedly generous. He opens up about why live music creates a kind of belonging that’s hard to find anywhere else online, and what it means to be a young musician in Melbourne, recognised for your art. Not in the needy sense, but in the deeply human one.

Love this conversation? Get exclusive podcast episodes on our Patreon and support the show!

Transcript

Lyndon: It’s a punk-ish band, isn’t it?

Breallyn: Punkish, yeah.

Lyndon: Punk, punk-esque.

Gray: Punk-esque.

Breallyn: How do you describe it?

Gray: I wish we were more punk.

Gray: This is why we don’t do video podcast.

Lyndon: You’re wearing UGG boots.

Gray: I’m wearing some of the ugliest socks in the world.

Breallyn: They’re comfy sherpa socks.

Gray: They’re comfy winter socks. Yeah, it’s getting cold in Australia.

Lyndon: Yeah. Your UGG boots aren’t… they say UGG, but they’re—

Breallyn: They’re the cheap Kmart version.

Lyndon: They’re the cheap Kmart version.

Tour Gear Memories

Lyndon: And I’m wearing Crocs, which sounds trendy and very 2023. They’re so old it no longer says Crocs on the bottom.

Gray: They’re probably older than me.

Breallyn: And I reckon they are exactly your age, because when you got those

Lyndon: What do you mean? My age?

Breallyn: Gray’s age…

Lyndon: I was gonna say, they’re definitely not 44 years old. What are you talking about?

Breallyn: They’re 19 or 20 years old.

Lyndon: How can you remember that?

Breallyn: Because you got them just before we went to America on tour — and Gray was five weeks old.

Lyndon: Really?

Breallyn: Yeah. Yep.

Lyndon: How do you remember that?

Lyndon: You’re like Will Arnett. He can remember, like, days — he can remember when something happened, what month it was and what the date was in 1984.

Breallyn: I remember we actually got them for you, me, and our two older kids.

Lyndon: Oh.

Breallyn: Because we knew we’d have to go through airport security — and we had a baby, a toddler, and a preschooler.

Lyndon: And we had the world’s—

Breallyn: And musical instruments.

Lyndon: We had the world’s heaviest pram.

Breallyn: We had a heavy pram because it had to take a baby and a toddler seat, and we had to strap car seats to it — and portacots.

Lyndon: Oh gosh.

Breallyn: Several. Oh my gosh.

Lyndon: I bet there’s somewhere on the interwebs about the evolution of prams. When you see the old ones and now the modern ones — the really old ones had four wheels and they looked like a version of—

Breallyn: Like a carriage.

Lyndon: A cart or a carriage. Yeah. And the boys inside them looked like girls because they would’ve been dressed in bonnets and frocks and things like that, and lace. Anyway. And then you get to modern day times and everything’s — they’re like sports cars, they’re like F1 cars.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: But anyway, we had—

Breallyn: We had an Adventure Buggy, which was like a four-wheel drive type version. It was robust, heavy.

Lyndon: The worst thing to take through an airport. Although—

Breallyn: It could be thrown around and it would survive — which we knew it would be. Yeah. Designed to take on rugged hiking tracks and stuff.

Lyndon: Yeah, none of this lightweight aluminium or—

Breallyn: No, nothing bendable and breakable.

Lyndon: Yeah, it was solid steel.

Breallyn: Tubular steel. And it survived multiple—

Airport Circus Days

Lyndon: So we had all that, and you were like, “Let’s get Crocs because we might have to take our shoes off.”

Breallyn: I knew we would have to. I’d have a baby strapped to me. That was you, Gray.

Gray: Yes.

Breallyn: And we had so much baggage. You practically were carrying a studio in a backpack.

Lyndon: I was too.

Breallyn: And I was carrying all of our children’s nappies and clothing supplies and stuff. I was like, it was just one thing to make it easier. Yeah.

But you know what was funny in the airports, what we would do on that tour — because there was our… you were a baby, so you were just being held. Our other two were toddler, preschooler, running around, and there were a couple — like, there were four other kids on that tour who were also of that running around, can’t control them age.

So when we would be waiting around, we would — it was hectic — and we would get all the instruments, the drums, the prams, the suitcases, and we would make a great big circular fort and put all the kids in the middle. And then throw the snacks in, and the toys in, and just like—

Lyndon: And then charge onlookers. We had our own little travelling circus.

Breallyn: A little petting zoo.

Lyndon: Yeah. A petting zoo.

Gray: Little mosh pit in the middle of the—

Breallyn: Yeah, it was. We just didn’t wanna lose a kid.

Lyndon: That’s funny. Yeah, I’d forgotten about that. That studio you’re talking about — that’s it there. Can you see in the middle, that one that says Mobile IO2882?

Breallyn: I do see it.

Lyndon: That’s what I had in a backpack. That was a heavy thing to carry around in a backpack.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: I’ve still got the backpack as well. And remember yesterday, I pulled out a shirt, which I honestly thought as soon as you saw it you’d go, “Yeah, throw it out.” And instead you’re like, “Oh, you can keep it if you want, just don’t wear it in public because it’s so threadbare that it looks see-through and we can see your awesome figure.” And I was like, “How long do you reckon I’ve had it?” And you thought I’d had that for 20 years.

Breallyn: Oh, I wondered if you’d bought that on that tour in America, because I know we went to Nordstrom Rack and we just collected clothing, so yeah.

Lyndon: Is Nordstrom Rack genuine imitation?

Breallyn: It’s Nordstrom, so it’s like a sort of, I think, higher end department store type thing. And this was like their outlet rack, so we got some—

Lyndon: Got a suitcase—

Breallyn: We got some really good stuff actually. A couple of designer T-shirts you had at the time. Yeah.

Lyndon: Really?

Breallyn: Yeah, it was good.

Meet Gray Wesley

Lyndon: Welcome to Pain in the Arts, where the pursuit of meaningful art meets the unpredictable demands of real life, and where one of us doesn’t know the topic until you do — or one of us finds out the topic at the same time that you do. In fact, today, two of us find out the topic at the same time you do. In fact, there is no topic today, but there is a person.

Gray: Ooh.

Lyndon: There is a personality.

Breallyn: Yes.

Lyndon: And who have we got today, Brea?

Breallyn: Today we are joined by son.

Gray: Hello. My name’s Gray, and I am their son.

Breallyn: Yay. The best.

Lyndon: See—

Gray: Ooh, the best one.

Lyndon: You’ve gotta work on your elevator pitch. The bad news is I’ve had to work on mine for 30 years, and I still don’t have one.

Gray: At least I can just piggyback off of being your son.

Lyndon: Yeah, you can say — what do I say? Hi. And they go, “Hey, what’s your name?” I go, “Lyndon.” And then they go, “And what do you do?” And now what I should say is, I’m a—

Breallyn: I’m a—

Lyndon: At the—

Gray: Macca’s drive-through.

Lyndon: Hello, sir. Are you there? Yeah. And then I just go, “Look, just give me a cheeseburger and small fries.”

Gray: Just give me a 50 cent cone.

Lyndon: A 30 cent cone.

Gray: That have gone up to 60 cents now.

Lyndon: This is one of my favourite jokes. That was the best thing about COVID — taking the kids around to every McDonald’s in the local area, within five kilometres or whatever we were allowed to travel. And I was horrified by how many McDonald’s we have.

Breallyn: Oh, it’s pretty bad.

Lyndon: And the prices were different at every single one.

Gray: Were they really?

Lyndon: Yeah. They were different. Remember I gave you guys — oh, did I say — “Here’s five bucks.” I can’t remember now, but it was like we went to one and we’ll get entrée, and then we went to another one to get the main, and then we went to another one to get dessert.

Gray: All three McDonald’s?

Lyndon: Yeah.

Gray: I don’t remember this.

Lyndon: We did three different drive-throughs. There was a fourth, I’m sure.

Gray: When was this?

Lyndon: But I think we’d eaten enough, or the thrill had gone.

Breallyn: I don’t think there was a—

Lyndon: When was it? It was during lockdown.

Breallyn: Yeah, I could tell you exactly when. It was Mother’s Day.

Gray: Really?

Breallyn: I was so overwhelmed, exhausted, overstimulated from trying to homeschool three kids and look after Birdie during lockdown.

Gray: We’re like, “We’re going to Macca’s.”

Breallyn: Yeah. I was like, “Get them out of my hair for a day.” I just said to Dad, “I just have to sleep, please. It’s Mother’s Day.”

Lyndon: Really? Is that the motivation? I just thought—

Breallyn: Get them out of my sight.

Lyndon: I just thought I’d shown some initiative.

Breallyn: No. I kicked you all out of the house—

Lyndon: Some parenting initiative, and—

Breallyn: I went to bed. Yeah.

Lyndon: But that was, yeah, asking for 30 cent cones. I love that.

Gray: I think you said a couple of different prices. We’d be in the drive-through and you’d go, “Oh, how much are your 30 cent cones?” They go, “50 cents.” And you go, “Can I get three 60 cent cones then?”

Lyndon: Not quite how it went, but yeah. The person that got the most joy out of it was me—

Gray: Probably.

Lyndon: Followed by nobody.

Breallyn: Yeah. I think your eldest kid was embarrassed. Cringing.

Gray: Yeah.

Lyndon: That and asking for maximum chips at a fish and chip shop is also one of my favourites. If you’re ever feeling a bit chipper and you just wanna test the personality or the attention of the person behind the counter, you ask for maximum chips and see how that goes down. That’s a good one.

Or going into a kebab shop — I was reminded of this the other day — going into a kebab shop at 2:00 in the morning and then asking for a souvlaki, and then when they get angry because it’s a completely different culture, you say, “They’re the same thing, aren’t they?” And then see how quickly you can run out of the store. That’s a good one if you’re brave. That’s probably my best parenting tips right there.

Breallyn: Wow.

Gray: Great.

Breallyn: Yeah. That’s why I’ve raised them single-handedly to this point.

Gray: Yeah.

Breallyn: How’s it been going?

Gray: Yeah. Subscribe for more parenting tips.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Pretty much.

Gray: Yeah. I turned out great.

Breallyn: Yes. Prime example.

Gray: Yeah.

Mindstain Origin Story

Breallyn: So Gray, we’ve had you come in today. We’ve actually been wanting to get you on the show for a while because we are coming from a point of view of where we’ve been in and around arts-related industries for all of our working lives. And had heaps of different experiences, and it’s as frustrating today as it was when we started out. And we’re really interested to hear the perspective of a young person. Now you’re 19, just turned 19 — we actually just had your birthday the other day.

Gray: We did. Which was fun.

Should we explain for anyone who doesn’t know me at all, what I do?

Breallyn: I would, yeah. Tell us about what you do.

Lyndon: I probably need an update.

Gray: Yeah. Okay. What I enjoy doing and stuff. I’m Gray, and I play drums in a band called Mindstain. M-I-N-D-S-T-A-I-N, if you wanna look that up.

Lyndon: Getting the plug in early.

Gray: I am. Yes.

Breallyn: You can follow the band on Instagram.

Gray: Yes. And check out their gigs upcoming. We do have one coming up in about a month. But I also handle some of the bookings and emails and — most of the social media you’ll see on the band account is probably my doing.

Breallyn: And tell us the story of how you found a band. Like, you were very young, weren’t you, when you—

Gray: I was pretty young when I started, yeah. I think I was about 16 when I — oh, I probably was a bit younger when — I think I was 15 when I got back into drums. Yeah.

Breallyn: True.

Gray: Yeah, because I’d been playing — as a kid we had a little drum kit set up in the house, and I liked banging on them and yeah, I just — was that an acoustic kit?

Lyndon: Was that an acoustic kit?

Gray: I think so.

Breallyn: Yeah, I remember — it was the little red one.

Gray: The little red one. Yeah. And you were obsessed with it.

Lyndon: Why have I forgotten this? I know, like we had a whole bunch of things set up. We’ve had one electric kit, and now you’ve got a second electric kit for practising.

Gray: Yes.

Lyndon: But the red one — where did that come from?

Breallyn: The red one — our eldest kid was obsessed with drums as well, and we bought a kids’ size proper acoustic kit. Yeah, it was like a kids’ red drum kit. Maroon red, deep red. Yeah. And our eldest kid, Vivian, played on that endlessly, like just for hours.

And before that they’d get all the saucepans out of the cupboards and—

Gray: Oh, yeah.

Breallyn: Hit them with little — Lyndon, this was in Pascoe Vale?

Lyndon: Seaford?

Breallyn: Yeah. Seaford. Oh, wow. Yeah. She would get out all the different saucepans and set them up like a drum kit, and like mixing bowls and stuff. And then be tinging away with chopsticks on them, to kind of make drums. So then we, yeah, I think for her second birthday or third, we got a proper drum kit. Yeah, proper acoustic drum kit, and then all the kids played it. In fact, all three of you were — yeah, you all wanted to be drummers.

You all had great timing and so on and really got into it. But yeah, you showed a lot of early promise with drums and then let it go for a while.

Gray: I did. I did.

Lyndon: For a long time.

Gray: Yeah. Yeah, I was, I guess, bouncing back and forward between not playing music and also playing music. I played piano for a little bit. Good couple of years I did piano when I was — yeah, I was playing a lot on the table again.

Breallyn: Yeah, I remember you would be — I think up until — playing a lot on the table again.

Lyndon: That’s right. Yeah, and you had one in your room.

Gray: Oh, yeah.

Lyndon: A big grand piano.

Breallyn: Not really. Not really. In this room here — the studio is now located — half of this used to be the kids’ music area and the other half was Birdie’s therapy area.

Gray: Yeah, like a playroom for Birdie.

Breallyn: Yeah, playroom. Yeah. Yep. So you guys had a bunch of stuff set up in here that you would—

Lyndon: Yeah.

Breallyn: Learn how to play.

Lyndon: It was effectively a studio. Yeah. There was the Focusrite interface and preamps and—

Gray: We had GarageBand.

Lyndon: Yeah. We had GarageBand.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: All that. The Mac computer was set up. It was set up so you could come in, turn on the computer, and start recording. And you guys all seemed to come in here just on your own. There wasn’t a lot of, like—

Gray: There wasn’t much hanging out.

Lyndon: There wasn’t a lot of Wesley Band.

Breallyn: No. We thought there might be a Hanson situation developing, but no, it didn’t work out that way.

Lyndon: Jackson Five. Yeah. Jackson Three. Yeah, Hanson was probably a better fit.

Gray: Oh, yep.

Gray: No, me and Jett used to come in every now and then and play piano together, because he was pretty into it as well.

Lyndon: He actually had a very good technique, I remember.

Gray: Yeah, he was better than me, yeah.

Lyndon: I didn’t say that. He just had a very good technique.

Gray: No, I think he was better than me.

Breallyn: Was he? You both played different things.

Gray: Yeah. I was pretty chopsticky with the piano.

Breallyn: I remember you always used to play the Harry Potter theme and things like that.

Gray: Yeah. Harry Potter and Star Wars songs and all that stuff. Just whatever we were into, we would just look up how to play it on YouTube.

Lyndon: Yeah.

Gray: And we didn’t know any of the notes. We’d just look at what the person was playing on YouTube — what keys they were playing. And I think that’s also part of that, just watching someone else do it and then trying to recreate it myself. I think that’s also kind of what got me into drumming, or got back into it, which I think happened probably in 2022.

I just started getting back into — I liked the artists that had really good drummers and I was super into them and I was like, “Man, I really wanna play drums again.” I can’t quite pinpoint the exact moment when I decided, or just realised, man, I really actually like drums. I really want to do it again.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: I feel like I can pinpoint it because we had—

Gray: I remember asking you guys if you could get me a drum kit and talking to Mum about it every now and then, but—

Lyndon: So I remember — when we had that studio set up for you guys — I remember travelling to the other side of Melbourne to get a pretty good Yamaha electric drum kit. I went and got that. I remember this day vividly because the house I picked it up from was opposite a primary school, and it was like primary school was just finishing for the day, so it was like a bunch of kids everywhere.

Gray: Busy, yeah.

Lyndon: And anyway, I loaded in, brought it back, and then after quite a while of it just not being used, I ended up selling it because everything was getting rearranged in this house. So I sold it and then I reckon two weeks later you said that you wanted a drum kit. And I was like, “Are you serious? Why couldn’t you have told me this like two weeks—”

Gray: Really?

Lyndon: Yeah, it was like — it must have been like two or three weeks or something like that.

Gray: Wow, okay.

Lyndon: Very inconvenient. And so anyway — so we’re like, “All right, your birthday’s coming up.” So then I went online and did my usual copious amounts of research and reading reviews, using my own BS filter to work out what would be good for the money and this, that, and the other, and got what I considered to be a really good set and it cost three times what the other one cost me.

Gray: Really?

Lyndon: Yeah. So you’d had them for, I don’t know, a couple of weeks, and then you were like, “Oh, I’m gonna audition for a band.” And so then I took you along to the audition and I was thinking, “Oh, you’ve just started seriously drumming.”

Gray: I think there might have been a couple of months’ difference in between that. I think I got—

Lyndon: There might have been. I’m truncating it a little bit.

Gray: I think I got an acoustic kit before I decided to join a band, maybe.

Lyndon: No.

Gray: Actually, yeah, you’re right.

Lyndon: So then when I was taking you to the audition, I was building you up, but also not wanting — like wanting you to have, if for instance they were like, “Yeah, thanks for coming, but no thanks” — that you wouldn’t be shattered and that you’d still be into drumming. And so I was carefully walking that line.

I think I left you there — that’s right, because it was gonna be a few hours — but I waited until I saw Seb come in, just to have a bit of a look and make sure you were okay, because you didn’t have a kit, so you had to use whatever was there.

Gray: We booked a room in a studio called Wick Studios. Wick. Yeah.

Lyndon: Good studios. Yeah. So obviously they loved you and so afterwards you’re like, “Yeah, we’re a band pretty much.” And then you’re like, “I need an acoustic drum kit.” And I’m like, “What?” The other one was practically still warm. The chips were all still hot inside the head unit.

Breallyn: Maximum chips.

Lyndon: Yeah. And so then we had to find you an acoustic kit. And I was like, “I can’t believe the amount of kits we’ve gone through.”

Gray: Yeah.

Breallyn: It’s been a fair few.

Gray: There’s been a lot of drums in and out of—

Lyndon: Anyway, that’s my recollection of the drum kits and how it went.

Gray: You’re not too far off. That’s pretty much how it went, yeah.

Breallyn: So how did you find out about this audition? Because yeah, literally you’d been — you’d really taken up the drums for two or three months and then suddenly you were auditioning for this band.

Gray: Yeah. So it wasn’t so much of an audition as it was just me telling these guys, “Hey, do you guys wanna jam?” Because they weren’t looking for a drummer per se. I think they wanted to be a band, but—

Lyndon: They were gonna be a duo.

Gray: No, I don’t think so. I think they had plans to be a band, but I don’t think anyone was really taking any initiative before I came along, to be honest. Maybe. I could be wrong.

Lyndon: So they were just mates hanging out—

Gray: They were just playing. They were just mates and writing songs. Yeah.

Lyndon: Which is a great way to start a band.

Gray: Yeah. Like they’d — Sebby and I think Harvey as well — did really wanna make a band. Like they’d been wanting to be in a band for a while and have their own band. But I put out an ad on Facebook, posted to a couple of Facebook groups of Melbourne musicians or whatever, and I just said, “Hey, I’ve been getting back into drums and playing for a couple of months. Here’s the bands I’m into. Here’s the music I’m into, like what I’m comfortable playing.” I think I put in my age range as well, which is how I made sure I’m not getting a band with 30-year-old dudes or whatever.

Breallyn: Especially when you were 15 at the time.

Gray: Yeah, I was like — or 16.

Breallyn: 16.

Gray: 16. I think I’d just turned 16. But we just jammed and Seb was like, “Man, you’re like the best drummer I’ve ever seen.” Probably. I don’t know, I can’t quite remember.

Lyndon: Is that what he said?

Gray: No, but he was very excited. I think he was just excited to have someone playing drums to the songs, because I think they had the first couple of songs — the idea for them, right? And I just took two minutes to listen to it and I was like, “Yeah, I’ll just play a basic beat over it.” That’s pretty much what I did. You just kinda play what’s right for the song, really.

Whatever the music is calling for, you just play it, and that’s what I did the first rehearsal, and that’s what I’ve been doing for pretty much every other one. But yeah, it really got him excited, and they were like, “Yeah, do you wanna be in the band with us?” I was like, “Yeah, sure.” And then—

Breallyn: That was cool.

Gray: That was it.

Lyndon: The origin story.

Gray: Yeah.

Lyndon: Your origin story.

Breallyn: And then you had to—

Gray: Yes.

Breallyn: What, find a bass player pretty quickly.

Gray: We found a bass player not super long after that, I don’t think.

Breallyn: And I think you — or maybe — had a gig booked very early in the piece too, didn’t you? Like all of a sudden you were scrambling to try to get a set list together.

Gray: Yeah. Our singer, he does like to move along quite quickly, which has definitely been a problem every now and then. I don’t think he’s gonna listen to this, so I’m just gonna put that out there.

Breallyn: Shout out to Sebby.

Gray: Shout out, yep. Love you, mate, if you’re listening. Yeah, he did like to be like, “Yeah guys, let’s just kick it. Let’s just go on stage.” And I was like, “No.”

Lyndon: It’s good to have that tension, I think, in a band, because you do most of your learning on stage. You’ve gotta obviously write the songs and rehearse them and practise them up. But there’s a point where that’s no longer helpful.

Gray: Yeah. There’s a big learning curve when you play your first gig.

Lyndon: Yeah.

Gray: Our first gig was actually — I’m still shocked at what our first gig was — because we ended up playing at Revolver Upstairs, if anyone knows that venue.

Breallyn: Melbourne institution, isn’t it? Everyone knows Revs.

Gray: Yeah. Revs. Yeah, so I can’t believe we got our first gig there, and it was co-headlining this other band, Magpie, who—

Lyndon: They’ve got a pretty big cult following, haven’t they? Magpie.

Gray: Yeah, they’re pretty big in the scene.

Lyndon: And wasn’t that gig — lucky the bass player didn’t turn up for them, for Magpie that gig?

Gray: Oh yeah, their bass player didn’t turn up, so they were just a two-piece that night.

Breallyn: Yeah. It’s crazy.

Lyndon: Yeah. And I just wanna point out the stage at Revolver — not the entire stage, but a lot of it — there’s a wire fence around it.

Gray: Yeah. It’s like a cage. It’s pretty weird.

Breallyn: All my photos of you on that night are inside the cage.

Gray: Yeah, through the bars.

Lyndon: Through the bars. Is the whole front of the stage wire as well, or just the sides?

Gray: It’s just the sides.

Lyndon: It just reminds me of the Blues Brothers movie. Have you seen that?

Gray: I have seen it. Yeah, really good. When they’re doing Rawhide.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Beer bottles thrown at them. I just think if there’s any stages that have the wire all the way around them, all they’re doing is enticing people to throw bottles.

Gray: Yeah. Because then you can’t touch the band members or— yeah.

Lyndon: So that’s Revs Upstairs, yeah.

Load In, Load Out

Gray: Oh, that reminds me. I hate getting the drums up those stairs.

Lyndon: Yeah. That is the worst thing about—

Gray: Those stairs, yeah. And a lot of—

Breallyn: A lot of Melbourne venues are like that. Little stairways, tiny rooms.

Gray: Yeah.

Breallyn: Little rabbit warrens of places.

Gray: Just cramped. Yeah.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Gray: Yeah. Terrible parking.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Gray: Oh my God.

Breallyn: But you can usually find a souvlaki at 2:00 AM, so that’s good.

Gray: Yeah. It’s in the city, which is good.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Yeah. Go to Lambs. Go to Lambs Souvlaki.

Breallyn: Since then your band has done quite a few things. You’ve put out a single.

Lyndon: A single. Yep.

Breallyn: You put out a single. You’ve been interviewed on community radio. You’ve made merchandise. You’ve even had a documentary made about you.

Gray: We did as well.

Breallyn: Yeah. Tell us about some of those things.

Gray: Yeah, so we’ve got some friends — our singer and guitarist, or our old guitarist Harvey, knew from high school. And they’re like film students. They decided one day to just make a little documentary about us. I think they had to do it for like part of their studies at uni, or like — I think TAFE. Yeah. Anyway, so they decided to make this documentary, Golden Age, about us. Golden Age — one of our songs, one of the first songs we wrote.

And basically what they did is they brought their friends and their camera crew and all that, and they came to like our gigs and our rehearsals, and they filmed the process of what we do. We all got some interviews. Some of our fans and stuff got to be in the documentary, and they got to explain what’s so good about us. That’s cool. And what’s so good about the scene and why they like going to gigs and stuff.

Lyndon: Were they fans to begin with, the people that were doing the documentary?

Gray: Yes. I would say, like our friends — they were like friends and fans. They came to a lot of the gigs and they took photos of us because they all had cameras. And I think probably, I assume, how it started is Sebby would’ve just asked them, “Hey, you guys come to this gig. And by the way, bring cameras, take pictures.”

Lyndon: Yeah.

Gray: Just developed into them unofficially being like our photo guys for a couple of months and then, yeah, they needed this film thing done for their studies. So they decided to make it about us, which was very cool.

Lyndon: That was good. Where can people see that? Is it online?

Gray: I don’t think so. I’m not entirely sure. I’ve not been super involved.

Lyndon: Wasn’t there a release of it recently or something?

Gray: There was a showing of it at a couple of cinemas. Do you guys know Cinema Nova?

Lyndon: Yeah.

Gray: Yeah. It was shown there the other week, which me and our bass player and singer went to.

Lyndon: Was there red carpet there and—

Gray: Yeah, everyone was cheering. Did you turn up—

Lyndon: Did you go in a limo?

Gray: I wish. No.

Lyndon: It was part of a festival, wasn’t it, that screening?

Gray: Yeah, it was some kind of film festival, I think. Yeah, like they got nominated to be put on the spot. So yeah. I’ve got a great story about that actually, because it was really funny when we went there because all the other student films were about reasonably serious stuff.

There was one about whaling and people doing it illegally. There were a lot of ones about culture and maybe indigenous culture and stuff.

Lyndon: He’s basically dissing every other film.

Breallyn: No, he’s not.

Gray: No, I’m not. They’re all about serious topics. I’m actually dissing our film in this moment. So they were all about all this stuff that you could say is pretty serious issues or whatever. Like current affairs sort of thing.

Lyndon: World topics.

Gray: Yeah. And then just sprinkled among it is just like us just acting like a bunch of dickheads, basically. Just prancing and dancing around a venue, and Sebby drinking a pot of lager on stage.

Lyndon: Yeah. It’s a punk-ish band, isn’t it?

Gray: Punk-ish, yeah.

Breallyn: How do you describe it?

Lyndon: Punk-esque.

Gray: Punk, punk-esque.

Breallyn: How do you describe it?

Gray: I wish we were more punk, but—

Lyndon: Yeah. How would you describe it? It does fit into some sort of sub-genre.

Gray: There’s just too many genres now, where everyone feels like they’ve got it boxed in. But I don’t know.

Lyndon: But attitude-wise, you would — it would be—

Gray: Yeah, punky sort of, angry, angsty attitude.

Band Humour and Image

Lyndon: But yeah, you’ve got songs like Mondeo—

Gray: Which — yeah.

Lyndon: So there is a bit of tongue-in-cheek, a little bit of humor in it. A bit of larrikanism. Is that a word?

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Larrikanism to the band.

Gray: Yeah, a bit of — bit of Crue-ness.

Lyndon: Bit of what?

Gray: Like Motley Crue.

Lyndon: Oh, Motley Crue. Yeah. I thought you said crudeness, which is probably true as well.

Gray: That’s also true.

Drummer Energy Onstage

Lyndon: So do you think when the cameras were on, did you guys play up to the cameras a little bit?

Gray: I think the other guys did. I was trying to be so low-key. I was just—

Lyndon: Really? Because low-key — I’ve seen you behind the drum kit playing topless and then standing up and—

Gray: Oh, but with gigs—

Lyndon: Your fists in the air.

Gray: Yeah, gigs are different.

Lyndon: Like, you’re low-key.

Gray: Yeah, gigs are different though.

Lyndon: Yeah. True, true.

Gray: Because you’ve gotta gas everyone up at that point and they’re all there to jump around.

Breallyn: It’s actually great to see you performing, like — yeah, as your parents, we see you just in your everyday life, which you are pretty cruisy and—

Gray: Yeah, I use the least muscles. I’m pretty understated. I do the least movements possible. Yeah. That’s the kind of person I am.

Breallyn: And then you save it all for the drums.

Lyndon: I hadn’t noticed.

Gray: Yeah. Put me behind a kit, stark opposite.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Gray: Move as much as I can. Yeah.

Breallyn: Which is cool.

Gray: Yeah.

Lyndon: People say that I’m laid back and laconic. And then you’re even more—

Gray: Yeah. And then put me behind a kit, stark opposite.

DIY Gig Logistics

Breallyn: One of the frustrations of being a young band is having to book gigs. You’ve gotta obviously—

Gray: Oh, yeah.

Breallyn: Scope out the venues. You’ve gotta engage with all of the—

Lyndon: Any band—

Gray: Gotta do pretty much everything yourself, right? It’s not big bands where they just have roadies do it for them. So—

Breallyn: You’ve gotta do everything yourself.

Lyndon: Yeah, that’s right.

Lyndon: Like the big touring band.

Gray: Yeah.

Lyndon: Yeah, there’s a massive jump up.

Breallyn: Like all of the packing in and out and stuff and—

Gray: Yeah. You gotta do your own load in and load out. Yeah, you’re responsible for all your own gear. You’ve gotta make sure that your stuff’s not getting stolen as well, because — yeah, there’s just a lot of precautions that go into—

Lyndon: There’s a lot of time too, isn’t there? How long would a gig be? The actual performance time of a gig — how long is it?

Gray: It depends. If you’re headlining, probably you can expect like 40, maybe 45 minutes.

Lyndon: 40, 45. Yeah, that’s right.

Gray: Yep.

Lyndon: And if you’re not headlining, you get three or four songs, don’t you?

Gray: No, you get like 30 minutes probably.

Lyndon: Oh, do you?

Gray: Yeah. I feel like I’ve not seen a set shorter than 30 minutes. Or never played a set shorter than that.

Lyndon: Yeah.

Gray: I don’t think so.

Lyndon: And how many bands would be on that bill?

Gray: Yeah, between three and five most of the time.

Lyndon: Yeah.

Gray: But most of the time it’s probably four.

Lyndon: So if you’re headlining, say, one of those gigs, which you have done — what time is the first band on?

Gray: Probably 7:00.

Lyndon: Around about 7:00. And what time do all the bands need to get there for line check?

Gray: It’s kinda weird, because most of the bands just kinda show up whenever.

Lyndon: Yeah.

Gray: I don’t know. I think what I’ve tried to do every gig is just make sure I’m there before most other people, so that I just make sure I’ve got all my stuff in order.

Lyndon: Yeah.

Breallyn: And it’s just good to — I think that habit started back when you were underage and you had to sneak in before the security got there so that you—

Gray: That’s actually a good point. Yeah, I had to sneak into quite a lot of gigs actually. Yeah.

Lyndon: And so what time would a sound engineer get there?

Gray: Yeah, that’s I guess the biggest thing about gigging in a small scene in Melbourne — everything depends, pretty much. The sound guy depends on whether or not the venue has one that they book for every gig, or most gigs, or whatever, like if they’ve got a rotation of sound guys maybe. Yeah. It’s either that or you just find your own guy. Same thing with door guys. Most of them have their own guys, but sometimes they’ll get you to find that yourself, which is—

Lyndon: Supply one.

Gray: Yeah. I wouldn’t even know how to do that if they asked us to.

Breallyn: Just ask a friend or someone. Yeah.

Gray: Yeah. I think you probably could, yeah, ask mates.

Breallyn: I’ve been the door person on many of Dad’s gigs.

Gray: Oh yeah. Wow. Yeah.

Lyndon: Yep. That’s right.

Gray: Yeah. But yeah, what else depends on stuff? Yeah, like if there’s a drum kit gonna be there — that also depends on the venue. Sometimes they’ll have a house kit. Also depends whether or not that house kit is good, because a lot of the times it’s horrible. And functioning.

Breallyn: So sometimes you’ll take your own snare and a couple of different things with you.

Gray: Yeah. Most of the time it’s bring your own snare and cymbals.

Breallyn: Okay.

Lyndon: Drummers normally, as a matter of course, want to do that anyway.

Gray: Yes, because those sort of make up your sound anyway.

Lyndon: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And in terms of communication from the venues — like you’re saying, everything depends on the venue. How’s it been finding out who’s booking for that venue? Do you find that there’s one person that books for a few venues, or do you find it’s often—

Gray: Oh, in the band, you mean?

Lyndon: No, for the venue itself. Like the booker or the agent that’s booking bands for the venue. Do you know what I mean? Like you often will contact the venue and they go, “Oh yeah, you need to speak to Bazza.”

Gray: Oh, yeah. And most of the time we just have that person reply, I think. Like they’re normally the person that has the email or something.

Lyndon: Yeah, that’s the thing with email. It’s much easier than it was when all you had was a phone number. And they’d go, “Yeah, you gotta talk to Brian.”

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: You go, “Is he there?” And they go, “Nah.”

Gray: “No, come in on Tuesday.”

Breallyn: Ring back at 2:24 on a Tuesday.

Lyndon: Yeah. Ring back Tuesday afternoon.

Gray: Yeah, something like that. Nah, I think most of the time they’ll just respond to us themselves.

Lyndon: And so what time would you — so when you’re getting there before the gig, it starts at 7:00.

Gray: Yeah, most of the time, yeah.

Lyndon: Roughly. So you’re getting there at 6:00 or something like that?

Gray: No, there’s like load-in time as well, which is sometimes two hours before. So yeah, about 5:00, 6:00. Yeah. So that’s probably when I’d get there. But before I had a car, I’d probably be getting there at 4:00 on public transport or something. I’d just make sure I could get there really early and—

Lyndon: And if you’re headlining, what time would the show finish?

Gray: Oh, that also depends, because if you’ve got five bands on and it starts at 7:00, then you’d probably expect to be out of there by like 11:30-ish.

Lyndon: To be out of there, packed up?

Gray: Oh, maybe. Maybe not. 11:00, 12:00, in and around that sort of time. But for like smaller gigs you probably wouldn’t finish super late. I don’t think so. If you had a three-band lineup and two bands have 30-minute sets, then yeah, the gig can’t take super long in that case. But most of the time we’re getting out pretty late though. Like 9:00, 10:00, 11:00.

Lyndon: Yeah. It’s not like you’re gonna be on stage for 45 minutes and you just get there 15 minutes beforehand and then you’re out of the—

Gray: No, no matter what, no matter where in the lineup we are, we’re still gonna be there for a good couple of hours.

Lyndon: Yeah. And then depending on who has to be there for a sound check or a line check — yeah, I know what it’s like. It can be mayhem. You don’t always get everyone there and not everyone’s turning up and there are a lot of changing factors all the time. But what doesn’t change is the time commitment for—

Gray: Yeah, no.

Lyndon: For someone like yourself. It can be quite grueling and exhausting in that sense. And yeah, that’s why we all wanted roadies, because otherwise before the gig even starts, you’ve gotta get yourself up. You’ve gotta get the adrenaline and everything pumping before the show, because you’re already a little bit tired from lugging—

Lyndon: Massive amps.

Breallyn: Packing your car. And getting there—

Gray: It is exhausting.

Breallyn: And then lugging it upstairs.

Lyndon: Yeah. It’s not too bad if it was just one trip, but so often it’s like you’ve gotta take four trips and then you’ve gotta go park your car somewhere else, and then you’ve gotta come back to the venue. And then you’re like—

Gray: When we rehearse, I park my car literally right outside the front door and it still takes me like 10 trips to get all my stuff inside. It’s insane.

Breallyn: Yeah. Yeah.

Scene Community and Validation

Breallyn: On a sort of related topic, the good side of it is that there are independent venues throughout Melbourne — this is where we live — and there are those opportunities for young bands like yourselves to play, which is great. And you have found a small but fairly dedicated following and a place within the scene. Yeah, like from an outsider looking at you — I’m just your mum — watching you go through all that kind of thing, what I’ve seen it do for you is really build up your confidence and capability in yourself.

As you say, you’ve had to be communicating with venue operators and figuring out the marketing and working out who gets paid what, and just doing all these kinds of things, as well as becoming proficient with your instrument and communicating with your band and organising all those things. So from my point of view it’s been great just for those kinds of skills. But even more than that, it’s kinda given you that sense of belonging within a group of friends in a wider sort of circle of the scene.

Gray: Yeah, community, yeah.

Breallyn: Yeah. How do you feel about that sort of side of things?

Gray: Yeah, no, I think I agree. It definitely does help your confidence a lot to be in — not just like a band, obviously. I can’t speak for every musician or every art form, but just, I feel like just any kind of shared interest that you can have with other people, that you can go to a place and you do it and you have people there that enjoy it — or even perhaps just something where there’s like, I guess, the creators and the consumers of it.

But no matter what, everyone who’s at that place doing that thing still really likes the same thing, right? I don’t know if that makes sense.

Breallyn: Yeah, absolutely.

Gray: But yeah. Yeah, I think yeah, it does help your confidence a lot to just be in a space with a lot of people with shared interests, or just people who are all at the same place for the same reason. Especially if that reason is to just have fun and just be yourself.

Lyndon: It’s a good antithesis—

Gray: Yes.

Lyndon: For what comes at you online too, isn’t it? Like it’s pretty hard in that environment, like you’re saying, when everyone’s there with a common goal, and that goal is actually quite positive and very human. Yeah. It’s hard to get into the doldrums and the negativity of what an online experience can be, don’t you think?

Gray: Yeah.

Lyndon: And, you know, it’s something I think we always get a little bit surprised about when we go out and do something with strangers and go, “Actually, that was quite good.” Like if you go to the footy — I always think about how amazing it is to go to a sporting event and have 40 or 50,000 strangers in one place all yelling at everyone.

Gray: Everyone doing the wave thing. Yeah.

Lyndon: It’s great. And the experience here in Australia anyway is that all the fans are intermingled. It’s not like you have one team’s supporters all on one side of the ground and the other team on the other side, just hating on each other.

Gray: Yeah.

Lyndon: It’s probably not too different from all the trolls online, but yeah. Oh God. But here, yeah, you go to an AFL match — it’s just so refreshing. Yeah. So yeah, it absolutely makes sense. And there is a community of people that just love live music. Yeah. They love it.

Gray: Absolutely.

Lyndon: And they wanna support it. And yeah, you’re right. And when you’re around those people, it really does boost the confidence and you realise how much you need it as well.

Gray: Yeah, exactly.

Lyndon: Yeah. And it’s nothing to do with someone — it’s not needing someone to tell me how great I am. It’s not that at all. It’s just you notice when someone is just so appreciative of the art form or of what you’re providing to their day or to their evening, whatever it is. It could be something that they were just really looking forward to all week — getting out and seeing a live band.

Or getting out and spending time with their mate who said, “Come along and check out this band. We’ll have a great night.” And when you see that, or when someone gives you some feedback or just comments and goes, “Thanks so much. That was a great night.”

Gray: Yeah.

Lyndon: It does validate what you do.

Gray: Feels good.

Lyndon: Yeah. It does feel good. And that’s how it should be. It should be a reciprocal thing, and you don’t do it for that transaction, but when it happens, it’s a very human thing. And it can be — it’s often the thing that becomes an important ingredient as much as the mateship of the band and the songs and working on the craft.

Gray: Yeah.

Lyndon: And you hear artists all the time say, “We’re always gonna write songs,” and, “We love hanging out,” and so on. But it’s like obviously we want an audience. We need an audience.

Gray: Yeah. For sure.

Lyndon: And it’s more than just kinda going, “We’ve got these songs and we want you to hear them.” It’s more than that.

Gray: Yeah. But yeah, no, just being recognised — or I would say it’s not performative to wanna be recognised for the art that you’re making, I guess, right? Like if you go and play a gig, or you play five gigs, whatever, 10 gigs, right? And not one person comes up to you — you’d probably feel pretty bad if no one came up to you and said, “Hey, great show. Thanks for coming out and playing.”

Lyndon: Yeah.

Gray: But pretty much every gig that we’ve ever had, we’ve had at least one person come up to each of us and be like, “Yeah, good stuff.”

Lyndon: Yeah.

Gray: Yeah. Even if someone messes up on stage, someone will still go up to them and go, “Hey, did a good job.” Yeah, so I think yeah, it’s a big part of it as well. But yeah, also just knowing that people are enjoying what you’re putting out there and what you’re doing — I think that’s also a big part of it, is just people like what I’m doing. I like that feeling.

Breallyn: Yeah, it’s so good. Yeah.

Lyndon: Yeah.

Live Show Craft and Future Plans

Lyndon: Is there an aspect, like when you’re performing live, where you’re playing songs that you haven’t quite worked them out yet — so not like you’re testing them on the audience, like they’re done, they’re performance ready — but where they’re still malleable and they’re still open to being — haven’t performed them a lot.

Yeah. And where you’re really relying on hearing and seeing how they feel live and what kind of energy they create? Because it’s one thing to think a song is doing something when you’re in the rehearsal room, and then it’s another thing to see what actually eventuates on stage. So do you approach it that way or do you have everything pretty much buttoned up?

Gray: Yeah, that’s a good question. I think not really. We don’t have a specific formula of like, “All right, we’re gonna play this song like this and after that we’ll transition into this song or whatever.” We don’t really have like a stage plan. But I guess it kinda just comes down to most nights we just check out the crowd.

We talk to the people in the crowd, just sorta suss out the vibe for the night, see how people are feeling, and if we feel like a song that we’ve been working on isn’t quite the right vibe for tonight or whatever, we just kinda edit our set lists depending on how the night’s going. And just what we think is gonna be enjoyed by the most people. If we’re recognising that the crowd we’ve got tonight is a lot of people who are into the really heavy sort of stuff, then we’ll cut out some of our softer songs, for example.

Lyndon: Yeah.

Gray: You know? Like especially if you’ve got a shorter set list because we gotta cut to the chase here. We’re not gonna be dicking around with our little baby songs.

Lyndon: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Gray: Yeah. And a lot of those songs too are just written out of needing filler. I’m not a big fan of that. I think we need to write less of those.

Breallyn: Write more killer, less filler.

Gray: Or I guess just cut some.

Lyndon: I had a good friend of mine, his brother was in a band — which I’ve unfortunately forgotten the name of — but they had a song which you could say was a filler song, but it was called Hemi Demi Semi Quaver. And they’d have this massive verbal intro about the next song that they’ve written, and then they’d count it in, one, two, three, four, and it would literally be “boomp.” That was the whole song.

Gray: Just one note.

Lyndon: Yeah, because a hemi demi semi quaver is a really short note.

Gray: Oh, cool. Didn’t the White Stripes do that once or something?

Lyndon: Probably.

Gray: I think they did a performance — it was like the shortest performance ever.

Lyndon: Yeah.

Gray: And it was just one note.

Lyndon: Yeah, it wouldn’t surprise me.

Gray: I’m pretty sure they did that. It was like the entire show the drummer just went “pshew.” And that was it.

Lyndon: Yeah. That’s great. Yeah. In terms of reading the crowd beforehand, you’re in good company because Mick Jagger still does that. And he’s been — what? He’s been the lead singer of — perhaps one of the most famous and enduring rock and roll bands of all time.

Gray: Yeah.

Lyndon: And how old would he be? He’d be—

Breallyn: 70.

Lyndon: 70 something. Very close to 80 as well, yeah. He’d be almost 80.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Yeah. But yeah, he still does that. And you think it’s the Rolling Stones, it’s Mick Jagger. But he’ll still go out and check the crowd.

Gray: Yeah. It’s not just about that though.

Lyndon: No. Yeah. That’s right. He needs—

Gray: A lot of artists make that mistake today. Especially a lot of the pop artists — they think whenever they go and play a show, they’re not really playing a show. They’re just playing their music. They think that everyone’s just there to look at them.

Breallyn: It’s the same show—

Gray: Yeah. Just trotted out over every audience. They think that everyone just wants to listen to Spotify, but instead of looking at a picture of Sabrina Carpenter, you’re looking at Sabrina Carpenter.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Gray: It’s like — yeah, exactly. That’s not what it is. That’s not what it’s always been. That’s not what it’s about.

Lyndon: That’s—

Breallyn: Yeah. So every live show is different because it’s a different audience, it’s a different day. Yeah, exactly. You feel different. You might approach a song differently. Yeah.

Lyndon: It’s funny you should say that, because when I was a teenager — I’m still a fan of Crowded House obviously — but when I was a teenager I listened to their albums a lot, like over and over. And I loved every little nuance and I just loved everything about it. And then when I’d see them live, they would change things up.

I remember one time they had the roadie play the guitar solo. All kinds of things were different, and it really took me a while to kinda be able to adjust to that, because I wanted to hear the songs being played truthfully to the arrangements of the album.

Gray: Yeah.

Lyndon: And I was in a minority. It seemed like most of the people there overwhelmingly — they loved the albums and loved the songs. But the live stuff was a whole other thing, which they loved. And honestly, you wouldn’t go to a Crowded House gig and it be the same thing twice. It just wouldn’t be.

Gray: No, of course.

Lyndon: And it wouldn’t just be a change of songs or the set list or anything like that. It’s so many different things, and so they really did understand that. But it took me a while because I was so passionate about the recorded music that I could put on in my headphones and listen to whenever I wanted, as an escape from whatever was happening in the house.

Gray: Yeah.

Lyndon: Or on long car trips. And you get — it’s really intimate. And then to see them live and some things were missing, I’d be like, “Oh no. What? That wasn’t how that bit’s meant to go.”

Gray: Yeah. But you don’t realise it at the time that, you know, watching a live performance of a band that you really love is just about seeing them in a different sort of context. Because that’s what live albums are for, no? Like a studio album — that’s how the band sounds in a studio when everything’s produced and how they want it to sound. And that’s their piece, right? That’s the studio work.

And then the live stuff is hearing them in a different context and trying to make it sound good for all the people watching, but also making it different to what they’re already used to, but still making it enjoyable for them and still making it something that they’re gonna gravitate towards. But that really is it — just how you can adapt to that different situation of where you’re playing and who you’re playing to and how you’re doing it and all that. It’s very different, and a lot of people and artists today don’t really recognise that. They think it’s just go out there and dance a little bit and sing my song with a backing track.

Lyndon: Yeah, that’s essentially what’s going on.

Gray: Yeah. And it’s the same thing every night, and that’s what people go for, and they pay their overpriced tickets. But yeah.

Lyndon: Yeah. And unfortunately when you do — yeah, it seems like that’s nearly a whole other market, a whole other part of the industry. Because you see that in some of these big outdoor festivals and things like that, and you go — but people are going, and they are paying their money, and they are enjoying it, and they are watching it through their phone as well, and recording it. Yeah, it’s so weird. And you go, “That’s a completely different experience to the one that I want to have when I’m attending a live music event.”

Gray: Yeah.

Lyndon: And the point that you’re making too — I think you could make an argument from a fan’s point of view, when they’re seeing their heroes on stage or they’re seeing a live band, they’re getting the essence of that band. Because like the recorded music, there’s more people involved.

Gray: Yeah, there is, yeah.

Lyndon: You’ve got engineers, you’ve got producers, you’ve potentially got record label execs that are popping in and out, saying what their opinion on things is. You know what I mean?

Gray: Yeah.

Lyndon: All kinds of different things can be happening. Like session musos or something.

Gray: Yeah. So but when you go and see the band live, it’s just them.

Lyndon: Yeah.

Gray: Yeah, exactly. It’s just what can these guys do?

Lyndon: Yeah.

Gray: Obviously, sure, for like tours or whatever there might be a bit of production, but in terms of just the music though, yeah, it’s just the band. That’s just the band and they’re just trying to put on a show.

Lyndon: Yeah.

Gray: And you sound a lot different when you’re trying to do that than if you’re just in a studio trying to make it sound good.

Lyndon: It’s good that people still want that though.

Gray: Yes. Yeah.

Breallyn: I wanted to ask you, Gray — as a very young musician, as we said, you’re 19, you’ve just finished school, and looking ahead in your life as to the sort of questions that most young people would be asking at your age of “What am I gonna do, and how am I gonna make this work? And how am I gonna make money?” and that kind of thing — what are your reflections as you become aware that unfortunately the arts isn’t as solid a paycheck as some of the other industries around? What are your plans going forward? What are you thinking?

Gray: Yeah. It is definitely a tricky bit of a pickle that a lot of us artists have fallen into, which is that none of us get paid pretty much anything. Most of our gigs, each individual member will walk away with, lucky, 20 bucks pretty much.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Gray: For like — so you’re actually—

Breallyn: Actually paying for the privilege by the time you’ve paid for petrol and parts for your drum kit.

Gray: Yeah, no. I’ve said this many times, but over the course of this — what, nearly three years that we’ve been doing the band — I feel like we’ve probably lost more money than we’ve made. Like it’s, yeah, it’s pretty rough.

Lyndon: If you travel on CityLink to get to the gig, you’re pretty much in deficit straight away.

Gray: Yeah.

Breallyn: Yeah, paying tollways.

Lyndon: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’ll be like 15 bucks each direction, isn’t it? Something like that.

Gray: It’s insane.

Lyndon: Yeah. So there’s your money gone. Yeah.

Gray: The good thing about music though, or I guess about the arts, is there are quite a lot of opportunities that you can find, a lot of jobs to be done, and a lot — there’s also just a lot to know and a lot to learn in any artistic endeavour. So I would say to anyone out there who’s struggling with “What am I gonna do with my art?” — don’t worry about it. You’ll figure it out. There’ll be a place for your skill set somewhere, I think. I think you can always find your people wherever. But it is definitely hard though. What was the question?

Breallyn: Oh, just how you’re feeling about, yeah, I suppose your own journey looking forward.

Gray: Yeah. Yeah, for myself I think as a musician there are opportunities. You can be a teacher, you can be just a musician and try and make it big. You can be a producer. You could do recording for other people. You could do studio work, whatever — there’s a lot, there’s lots that you can do and there’s lots of pathways you can go down. And even if you don’t end up doing it as your job or something, you can still have it as just something that you do, you know?

Breallyn: Yeah.

Gray: Like—

Breallyn: Doesn’t have to be your whole identity or your whole—

Gray: Yeah.

Breallyn: Time that you take. Yeah.

Gray: Yeah. My bass player has three jobs and he still does this.

Breallyn: Yeah. Oh, that’s great. I love that you see the opportunities in all the different directions, because I think one thing that we haven’t wanted is to paint such a picture of how difficult it can be that we would discourage our kids from pursuing their own artistic visions and stuff.

Gray: Yeah. For sure.

Breallyn: I wanted to ask you too — grown up watching your dad be in the music industry, like we were talking about. You went on tour with us when you were five weeks old — that was your first tour — and I think there was a gig or two before then that I took you out to. I don’t know what I was thinking, but yeah, you were a baby. And you know, you’ve been growing up, probably with an artistic family, it’s like you get involved in your parents’ work more than perhaps you might with a parent that—

Gray: Intended to?

Breallyn: That sort of goes to a job outside the home and has just a standard nine-to-five type job. Yeah, you’ve had different tours. You’ve had your dad be away at different times. You’ve had me studying. All kinds of different things kinda going on throughout your life. And you’ve watched the sort of ups and downs of when money’s coming in, when it’s not.

Lyndon: I don’t even know if you’d be aware though of—

Breallyn: Like side gigs and things like that.

Lyndon: Yeah, that sort of—

Breallyn: Yeah, I know. I mean — oh, kids are aware of stuff all the time.

Gray: I was pretty aware.

Lyndon: When money’s coming in and when it’s not coming in.

Breallyn: When it’s more tight.

Lyndon: Because I’d come back — I’d come bearing gifts.

Gray: I think I was aware that we weren’t necessarily well off.

Lyndon: What gave it away? Was it the tarpaulin and threadbare blankets?

Gray: No, honestly—

Lyndon: And the cold concrete?

Gray: I think it was just going to school and just seeing how spoiled every other kid was.

Lyndon: In what way?

Gray: Oh, just — it was insane.

Lyndon: What did that look like?

Breallyn: Money for the canteen.

Gray: Oh, I got money for the canteen for a little bit anyway.

Breallyn: That’s true.

Lyndon: Did you not have a packed lunch of walnut and sultana sandwiches?

Breallyn: No. Not from my kitchen.

Gray: No. But just, yeah, like in primary school and stuff, you know the people around here — they’re crazy. There’s people here with more money than they would even know what to do with. So—

Lyndon: I think some of that’s perception as well.

Gray: Maybe.

Lyndon: Yeah. Yeah, consumerism sometimes can make people look affluent when in actual fact it’s not that at all.

Gray: Yeah. There was just always a bunch of kids talking about a bunch of stuff that I didn’t have or had never even heard of. Like some kids would just be like, “Oh yeah, I was on my PlayStation yesterday, but then I got bored, so I played on my Xbox instead.” Never had either of those.

Lyndon: Oh, yeah.

Gray: Or something like that, right?

Lyndon: Exactly, yeah. And in primary school too, there were some people where you could tell they had a bit of cash.

Gray: Sometimes some kid’s mum would come in and be like, “Oh sir, I forgot to give him his $50 for today.”

Lyndon: Yeah.

Gray: Like, I don’t know. Yeah, it was just stuff like that. I don’t think I thought about it too deeply, but I kinda just recognised, yeah, okay, so we’re a little more poor than these people. But like—

Lyndon: Yeah.

Gray: It didn’t bug me too much. I was just kinda — because I knew obviously you guys had taught me — you didn’t raise me bad. I think I recognised that it does make you a little bit of a shitbird.

Lyndon: I don’t think that was the lesson.

Gray: No, it wasn’t the lesson. But you guys kinda did go over that — you couldn’t give me too much of what I wanted. You couldn’t indulge me, because then how would I grow up, right? How would—

Breallyn: Yeah. I think the lessons were—

Gray: It was something like that.

Breallyn: Probably like we weren’t gonna be buying Xboxes and all that anyway. Like yeah.

Gray: Yeah. Yeah.

Breallyn: You had enough technology stuff and—

Gray: Oh, I definitely understood that we couldn’t have the big consoles and the big TVs that all the other kids had, because yeah, I just knew that nobody needed them anyway.

Lyndon: I think too, what you’re saying, Brea, is that we could’ve, but it was a choice — in the same way that we chose, like, no, we’re not gonna have TVs in the bedrooms.

Gray: Yeah.

Lyndon: And just like we also didn’t make a habit of having soft drink in the fridge, and just a lot of stuff like that. Choices. Yeah. But there is a degree of, when you are living as a creative, that you’re making another choice, and that is you’re knowingly living below your means.

Gray: Yeah.

Lyndon: Yeah. So like — yeah, because money comes in, and then money doesn’t come in for a while. So you have to be able to work out what you can live on and what things — it’s not even what you’ll do without so much, it’s just nearly a doggedness to not live comparing yourself to other people, because that’s a recipe for despair or something, isn’t it? So there are some choices that we would make as parents, and just as creatives, that were to do with our own ideals. And then there are others that were more economically based.

Gray: Yeah.

Lyndon: Yeah. And I think as a kid you do — you’re right, you do see that. And when I was a kid, I saw exactly the same sort of thing you’re talking about. One of the schools I went to was in Glen Iris, which is an inner city suburb. And right over the road from Glen Iris is Toorak.

Gray: Yep.

Lyndon: So we had some celebrity’s kids going to our school that were in my class. And so yeah, they—

Gray: Like who? Hughesy’s kid?

Breallyn: Hughesy’s the same age as Dad.

Gray: Oh.

Lyndon: Yeah. Hughesy’s my — oh, he — yeah, we’re the same era. He’s probably a bit older. Yeah. But—

Gray: How about that COVID?

Lyndon: No. Anyone I would say you wouldn’t know. But one kid had a calculator watch on, which was a big deal.

Gray: That’s pretty rich.

Breallyn: Wow.

Lyndon: Another kid — I went over to his house and it was a mansion. And they had a ballroom with, I don’t know if it was a suspended floor, like proper ballrooms, but it was definitely a wooden or parquetry floor.

Gray: Wow.

Lyndon: Nothing in it, just a ballroom. And—

Breallyn: Ready for the dance.

Gray: Cars.

Lyndon: No, ready for his remote control car.

Gray: Oh. Oh.

Lyndon: That’s where he did his remote control car.

Gray: That’s insane.

Breallyn: That would be cool.

Lyndon: And, so if we’re talking about being a child and then sort of comparisons of different worlds — just recognising — I had just moved from the outback of WA, living on an Aboriginal mission. But then to move to Melbourne and then to be in someone’s mansion, and they’ve got a remote control car.

Gray: Yeah.

Lyndon: A proper one.

Gray: And an entire room to just do it.

Growing Up Without Much

Gray: That’s insane.

Lyndon: Yeah. So yeah, I know what you mean. It’s crazy. You go — where are your parents? What do they do?

Gray: What do they do?

Lyndon: Yeah. I don’t know. You don’t even — yeah, it’s just, I don’t know, I think thoughts just go through your mind and then just go out just as quick.

Gray: Yeah. Yeah.

Lyndon: But probably just — I don’t know. Yeah. I don’t ever remember. It didn’t really bother me. It was more just intriguing.

Gray: Yeah. It didn’t bother me too much. I think it was more so just you notice what other kids have and you don’t have, and just yeah, you compare yourself.

Lyndon: Certainly.

Gray: Yeah. If they pull out 50 bucks at the canteen—

Lyndon: Yeah, exactly. You’re like, “How do I befriend this person?”

Gray: Yeah, no. Yeah. Would happen a lot though. Some kid would just bring a $20 note and his remote control car — oh, and his big chest of Pokémon cards or something. Yeah, you’re just like, “Man, this kid is—”

Lyndon: This is—

Gray: Definitely got rich parents.

Breallyn: Kid currency.

Lyndon: Yeah. If you wanna talk about poor — when I went over to Dario Rath’s place and he had cola-flavored cordial, I was like, “Wait, what? I didn’t even know you could get cordial.”

Gray: “What’s cordial?”

Lyndon: What’s cordial? No, I knew about cordial, but cola-flavored? This was like a whole other thing. I was like, “Man—”

Breallyn: We just had dirt water.

Lyndon: We live on different sides of the track.

Gray: Yeah.

Breallyn: Yeah. I suppose I was thinking more of, I don’t know, not just rich and poor, but like observing your dad having to just kinda make his way in the creative world. Yeah. What, how’s that been — as a kid watching that?

Gray: Yeah. Oh, I don’t know. It was — I wouldn’t say it was particularly hard or anything, but it was—

Lyndon: Comical.

Gray: It was hilarious, yeah. It was probably a bit interesting to me because I think you guys would’ve shown me all the artists and stuff that did make it big and you go, “Oh wow, these guys were super rich from doing this.” And then you go, “Oh, my dad’s done the same thing that these guys have done, but — where’s the money?”

Lyndon: Has it just all come back to money again?

Gray: I don’t know. That is the question, huh?

Lyndon: Oh, that’s hilarious.

Gray: I guess I didn’t think about it too much. I just kinda thought, “Yeah, I’ll do it.”

Breallyn: Hasn’t dissuaded you too much?

Gray: No, not really. I don’t know. I don’t know how to answer this question.

Breallyn: It’s fine.

Gray: Yeah. It’s just—

Lyndon: You’re asking questions that require critical thinking.

Gray: Critical thinking? What’s that?

Breallyn: He’s a critical thinker. Yeah, it is something. I know. That’s something that we definitely did teach.

Gray: Yes.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Gray: Yeah. When I think about just growing up and all that, I kinda just think about just how surrounded by creativity and stuff I was — music constantly playing, obviously Dad playing music. You writing and reading me books and stuff, and—

Wiggles Memories

Lyndon: What about Mum’s singing? Does that stick out in your memory at all? Singing you to sleep?

Gray: Not really.

Lyndon: No? Okay.

Gray: Maybe when we’ve sung in the car before. But nah.

Breallyn: Also when you were little you used to get me to put on Wiggles concerts in the lounge room every day.

Lyndon: What, you actually performing the Wiggles, as the Wiggles?

Breallyn: Yeah, alongside — we’d put on — it was back in the day of VHS. We had like tape players, or a couple of DVDs, I think, The Wiggles. And you kids would go, “Come on, Mum.” Sing — it was that real ’60s one that they did, and I would always have to do the dance and stuff.

Gray: I feel like I remember this one. Did they have bob cuts or something?

Breallyn: Yeah. Yeah, it is. That was — oh, with that—

Lyndon: What was it?

Breallyn: It was that ’60s one with Leo Sayer.

Lyndon: Oh, yeah.

Breallyn: He did that song, yeah.

Lyndon: “You make me feel like dancing.”

Breallyn: That’s the one, yeah. Yeah.

Lyndon: “I wanna dance the night away.”

Breallyn: And then we would sing that every day.

Gray: Were their outfits all sparkly and stuff? I feel like — yeah. Yeah, I have a very vivid memory of this old Wiggles show, and they all had bob cuts and they were just kinda jigging around like The Beatles.

Breallyn: Yeah. No, that was fun. My singing days are very few and non-existent, essentially. But you did get lullabies at night.

Gray: Yeah, we did. Oh, true. Yeah, we did get the nursery rhymes and stuff. Yeah. Yeah, a whole childhood of—

Lyndon: Awesomeness.

Gray: Creativity.

Lyndon: I don’t wanna put words in your mouth, but just probably brilliance.

Breallyn: I think he’s gonna stick with creativity now.

Gray: Yeah, creativity. We’ll go with that one.

Breallyn: That’s good. Yeah. I’m glad that—

Gray: You were able to get that across.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Gray: I assume it must have played a huge part. I don’t know. Imagine if you were like into maths and science — nothing wrong with that — and you’re like, “Yeah, I just grew up in a household with so much creativity, and they just didn’t—”

Breallyn: The deprivation.

Lyndon: Take anything seriously.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: There’s not a calculator in sight.

Gray: Yeah. Imagine that. I was so glad when I got to leave home, because my dream was to be an accountant.

Lyndon: Yeah.

Breallyn: To the disappointment of my parents.

Gray: Yes. Who wanted me to be a rock star and travel the world and—

Connect With Mindstain

Breallyn: Before we wrap up, Gray, can you tell us how to find Mindstain on your socials?

Gray: Yes. We’re on Instagram, we’re also on Spotify.

Breallyn: What’s your Instagram handle?

Gray: Yes, I would recommend go to the Instagram because that’s where you’ll find all of our upcoming gigs. I’m pretty sure there is a link to our Spotify on there. I’m not entirely sure, but there might be. Instagram handle is mindstainband, M-I-N-D-S-T-A-I-N, and then the word band. And that’s us on Instagram. If you wanna follow me on Instagram, it’s graywesleydrums. Pretty simple. G-R-A-Y, not E.

Breallyn: Yeah, great.

Gray: Yeah. Get out and—

Breallyn: Follow the band.

Gray: Follow the band, yes.

Breallyn: And go and check out some live music.

Gray: Yeah. We’ve got a gig in a month, August 13.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Gray: If you’re in Melbourne –

Lyndon: Where’s that at?

Gray: Come. It’s at Last Chance Rock and Roll Bar, which is near the Queen Victoria Market.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Gray: Great venue.

Lyndon: Pretty easy to get to.

Gray: Yeah.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Gray: Yeah, it’s pretty good.

Breallyn: Awesome.

Gray: Yeah.

Breallyn: Thanks for joining us. It’s been nice to—

Gray: My pleasure.

Breallyn: To, yeah, to have a chat.

Gray: It’s been a little while coming.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Gray: Yeah.

Breallyn: Haven’t seen you since breakfast, so yeah.

Gray: Yeah. Thanks for having me on.

Breallyn: Yeah. Awesome.

Gray: Pretty exciting. No worries.

Breallyn: Thanks a lot.

Lyndon: Maybe we’ll get you on again down the track somewhere.

Gray: Yeah, maybe. Nice. Maybe one of the other guys can come on too. Maybe.

Breallyn: That’d be fun, actually. That’d be cool. Yeah. Yeah, that’d be great.

Gray: Yeah.

Lyndon: All right. Well—

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Talk to everyone next week.

Breallyn: Thanks, everyone. Cool.

Gray: Bye.

Lyndon: Catch you then. Bye.

Want more deep dives into the creative process? Our Patreon supporters get exclusive episodes and behind-the-scenes content.