September 8, 2026 · Episode 82
58 Min, 01 Sec 

Summary

This week I’m bringing a question that reared it’s head again. It’s the idea that suffering is the source of our best art. And the fear that goes with it – the reluctance to heal, to process and to move on – in case our edge goes with it.

Because if it’s true that the best work comes from the most painful places, what happens if you stop hurting? What if healing makes you lose the thing that made the work matter?

It’s a conversation about the tortured artist myth.

Why it’s persisted for centuries, what neuroscience actually tells us about trauma and creativity and whether it’s possible to park the painful material somewhere you can still reach it, without having to live there to access it.

Lyndon does his best to be supportive and understanding, but unfortunately gives-in to his usual intrusive thoughts!

And we both ponder whether artists can actually afford therapy.

You might want to listen if:
• You wonder whether healing and creative legitimacy can coexist, or whether you have to choose
• You’ve caught yourself thinking that an artist with an easy life might have nothing real to say
• You’re carrying something ongoing – not a wound from the past, but one that keeps reopening – and you’re trying to make art out of it

Love this conversation? Get exclusive podcast episodes on our Patreon and support the show!

Transcript

Lyndon: Welcome to Pain In The Arts, where the pursuit of meaningful art meets the unpredictable demands of real life, and where one of us knows the topic at exactly the same time that you do. Welcome. I’m Lyndon.

Breallyn: I’m Breallyn.

Lyndon: What have you got for us today, Brea?

Breallyn: Wow, straight into it. Yeah.

Lyndon: It’s the new me.

I’ve decided that, look, when I was a kid —

Breallyn: All this chitty chatty stuff, it’s just —

Lyndon: Yeah…

Breallyn: … it’s out now.

Lyndon: When I was a kid, I remember being called Motor Mouth.

Breallyn: So you thought you’d grow up to be a podcaster?

Lyndon: Back then. That’s right. I thought, “When I grow up, I’m gonna be a podcaster on the mission fields of Western Australia.”

What was it? What’s another slight for people that just have an enthusiasm for life and a dream in their heart?

Breallyn: I don’t know. I remember the term verbal diarrhea being tossed around quite a lot.

Lyndon: What, for me?

Breallyn: No, for people that talked a lot.

Lyndon: Yeah. Yeah, no, I don’t have any sort of — I don’t have any scars or anything from my childhood really.

I was called skinny and a motor mouth. Skinny motor mouth. And I did come off my bike at full speed once down the compound — that’s what it was called, The Compound — into pebbles and —

Breallyn: Ouch…

Lyndon: … all those sort of stones that are around the edges of asphalt.

There was no asphalt, but —

Breallyn: Oh, they’re so fun to pick out if you have gravel rash, aren’t they?

Lyndon: Oh. So yeah, so there’ll be no verbal diarising. Diarising? – Diarrhea from me today.

Breallyn: Wow, okay.

Lyndon: Just gonna — you’re gonna — you’re gonna scholar me — and I’m just gonna listen.

Breallyn: Oh, is that how it’s gonna work?

Lyndon: Yeah.

Breallyn: Because today you’re the one that finds out the topic at the same time that the audience does. You’re not planning on saying anything further from this point? Is that the gist of it?

Lyndon: For everyone playing along at home — I’m raising my eyebrows — and keeping my lips tightly sealed.

Breallyn: All right then.

Lyndon: Apart from that sentence. But I will say this. Just kidding. I will say this, and I’m not kidding. You’ve got your laptop, and that always bothers me.

Breallyn: Really?

Lyndon: Yeah.

Breallyn: Why is that?

Lyndon: I don’t know. I just feel like it’s gonna require of my brain power or something. I don’t know.

Breallyn: I usually have an outline kind of worked out, a few points.

But that’s all there is really. There’s nothing to be too intimidated about.

Lyndon: Yeah. New rule too — we’re not allowed to scratch our beards during the recording of the podcast. Oh, I’ll remember that. Because yeah, it’s too noisy.

Breallyn: If I scratch mine —

Lyndon: Don’t even say those words…

Breallyn: … you can’t hear it.

There’s no beard.

Lyndon: That is the worst. I’m not even leaving that in. But no, you don’t have to go straight into your topic.

Breallyn: I can.

Lyndon: You’ve got — there’s plenty to talk about, isn’t there?

Breallyn: Huh.

Family News: An Engagement in the House

Breallyn: We’ve had a pretty big week in our household.

Lyndon: I actually wasn’t even thinking about that.

Oh, suddenly you’ve come alive. You’re like — “Oh, that’s right. We do have some news.”

Breallyn: That’s right. There’s a reason I’m — I don’t know —

Lyndon: … vague —

Breallyn: … out of it and emotional and, yeah, out of the moment. Our son proposed to his girlfriend last weekend.

Lyndon: Which son?

Breallyn: Our eldest son. Our eldest son, our second-born child, proposed to his girlfriend, so they are now engaged and gonna be getting married in about seven months. Which is great news, but it’s always, like — it’s mixed emotions, isn’t it?

It’s like our little boy growing up and all of life’s difficulties ahead of him and, yeah, it’s big. I’m definitely feeling a lot of emotions about it. Every time I tell him I’m happy, I burst into tears.

Lyndon: Do you?

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: And what does he do?

Breallyn: Oh, he’s so kind. He says, “Oh, it’s all right, Mum,” and gives me big hugs and — oh, that’s nice — yeah, he’s a really good boy.

Lyndon: No, I’m happy to see him go.

Breallyn: Shut up.

Lyndon: That came out wrong. I’m happy for him, and good luck to him. No. Yeah, it’s good. It’s good news.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: But it does expedite the next stage of our life. It does bring that into focus.

Breallyn: It does, because for a while it’s been like we’ve had a couple of grown-up children living at home —

and just having those first few years of adulthood in our home. Saving a bit of money and learning how to do stuff, but still living under our roof and all of that protection and everything, and now he’s gonna be heading off. It’s our second kid to leave the house, so it’s not like we haven’t done this before, but it’s, yeah, it’s hard.

It’s hard. We’re gonna miss him. He’s great to have —

Lyndon: This is a bit different, isn’t it? Because now he’s got a different woman in his life.

Breallyn: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.

Lyndon: Which he has had for —

Breallyn: Yeah… maybe the —

Lyndon: … last few years —

Breallyn: For a couple of years, yeah.

Two, three years.

Lyndon: But as in making a home and all that sort of stuff.

Breallyn: Yeah. So it’ll be a whole different thing.

I’m trying to look at it that we’re not losing a son, because obviously we’re not. We’re gaining a daughter-in-law, which will be lovely.

Lyndon: Yeah, but she bakes things that — are not healthy for me.

Breallyn: She does. No one’s forcing you to eat them.

She does like to bake. She likes to —

Lyndon: You know what? That’s like giving an alcoholic — like putting drinks in front of him, going, “No one’s forcing you to drink them.” “But I did buy them for you, and if you don’t, I’ll be very offended.”

Breallyn: I don’t think she’s gonna be forcing you to eat baked goods every day.

But she does like to bake every so often.

Which is lovely.

Lyndon: Yeah.

Breallyn: Yeah. So that’s gonna be nice. It’s gonna be really good to have her a more official part of the family, and yeah. But it is — I don’t know, it’s still mixed emotions seeing our boy grow up.

Lyndon: Yeah. One for me and mixed for you. A mixed dozen for you.

Breallyn: What do you mean? One what? One feeling for you? One emotion?

Lyndon: No, I’m happy for him.

Breallyn: You’ve got one emotion.

Lyndon: Yeah, I’m sure there’s others. Maybe they’ll come up in one big go, like at the wedding.

Breallyn: Oh, that’ll be —

Lyndon: And I’ll —

Breallyn: … just wonderful…

Lyndon: … imagine that.

Breallyn: Yeah, I’ll have to kick you out.

Lyndon: And I’ll just — bawling or something.

Breallyn: Don’t do that.

Lyndon: No, sorry, not bawling. I meant brawling.

Breallyn: Don’t do either of those.

Lyndon: Yeah, so it was big news.

Big news. I guess we knew it was coming, but —

Breallyn: Yeah, well —

Lyndon: … once it actually happens —

Breallyn: Yeah.

He did —

Lyndon: You guard your emotions —

Breallyn: … let us know —

Lyndon: … until it happens, don’t you?

Breallyn: Yeah. And we were problem-solving with him to try to get the whole proposal to happen. Or —

Lyndon: … to not happen, as you were probably more —

Breallyn: That’s not true. I wasn’t sabotaging the proposal.

Lyndon: Actually, Bec listens to this.

Breallyn: Oh, she does sometimes listen, yeah.

Lyndon: Sometimes, yeah.

Breallyn: We can’t wait for Bec to become —

Lyndon: She knows that I just make up stuff.

Breallyn: … an official part of the family. Yeah. No, it’s very exciting.

Lyndon: She’s getting to learn my sense of humor — or lack thereof.

Breallyn: I read a quote not that long ago and it said this — it said, “To

The Tortured Artist: A Myth That Persists

Breallyn: … everyone, when they feel like all they’re trying to do is trying to love themselves, you already do, because where do you think the trying comes from?”

Lyndon: I told you if you have your laptop, you hurt my brain.

Breallyn: And just that idea of people really having a hard time with their mental health, with self-esteem and self-acceptance and that kind of thing.

But every day having to go into battle — the very fact that they’re going into battle means that love does exist deep down, and that’s what’s fighting for them. But it got me thinking, because — and we’ve touched on this many times — our friends and people in our industries that we know or come in contact with are often people who have mental health struggles or other traumas and things like that.

We tend to — it tends to be a topic that comes up again and again.

Lyndon: I’m just laughing because it sounds like you’re saying, “Asking for a friend,” when you actually mean — us.

Breallyn: Oh, quite possibly. Definitely not excluding us from this.

Lyndon: We’ve heard it said of friends of ours that they’re having some — oh, I’m quite — mental health issues because they’re trying to create art and it’s not turning into any physical money, and they’ve still gotta pay for rent.

Breallyn: It’s almost the opposite angle that I’m wanting to talk about in this particular episode, because — and I can absolutely fair and square put myself in this basket.

You can decide which basket you’re gonna sit in.

Lyndon: Oh. I’ve put you in the basket before, don’t worry about that.

Breallyn: You might sit in a pot plant somewhere else. I don’t know where you are. But something that does sometimes come up is that within the struggle, sometimes that’s where the best art is created, or the best ideas — it’s almost like sitting within that tortured part is where the inspiration comes from, or the thing that makes your art different.

And I’ve heard a few people say they wouldn’t exchange those struggles, or that part of themselves, or that personality disorder, or that mental health issue or whatever it is.

They wouldn’t wanna change it because that’s where they feel like the rawest edge of the art sits, and that kind of thing. So —

Lyndon: It’s interesting. I think also part of that is because if you were to change that, you’re actually changing yourself — as in who you are and the experiences that you’ve had. So it’s a hypothetical question anyway, isn’t it, to some — somebody, like, because you — you can’t necessarily change —

Breallyn: You can’t change the past, obviously.

Lyndon: You can’t change your —

Breallyn: Yeah, you can’t.

Lyndon: … personality traits, or you can’t change — what would it be called? — a diagnosis that you have or whatever.

You’ve gotta work with it. But yeah, if in a hypothetical world you’re like, “Yeah, I’d change that about me,” you’re basically saying that you would erase your existence as it —

Breallyn: Because you’d never be —

Lyndon: … for one that you don’t know.

Breallyn: Yeah, you wouldn’t be the same person.

Lyndon: And also, I do wonder too — from a consumer or a public point of view, we actually want our artists to be tortured.

Breallyn: It’s definitely, yeah — a big idea that persists.

Lyndon: It’s like if someone’s had it seemingly too easy, you go, “Where’s their credibility to create anything of substance that can speak to me emotionally?”

I remember people thought that a little bit with Thirsty Merc. Remember the band Thirsty Merc?

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Great band.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: And what’s the singer’s name and songwriter? Thistle — Ray Thistlethwaite. Thistle — yeah… is that a word? Thistlethwaite?

Breallyn: Thistlethwaite. Yeah. Very — yeah, that’s right…

Yeah, we saw them.

We saw him in a different band.

Lyndon: Do you reckon his great-great-grandparents had a lisp, and that’s how the surname’s — Thistlethwaite… actually Thistlewaite? Anyway, that’s stupid. I said I wouldn’t babble. But he came from a fairly well-to-do suburb of Sydney.

Maybe the clue’s in the name.

He had a very expensive Merc to run.

Breallyn: Absolutely.

Lyndon: But he —

Breallyn: For some reason I thought they were from Perth, that band.

Lyndon: No.

Breallyn: Okay.

Lyndon: A lot of great Australian bands are from Perth.

Breallyn: I know, I know — Powderfinger and whatnot, but yeah.

Lyndon: But — no, not Powderfinger.

Breallyn: Oh.

Lyndon: No, yeah. They’re from Brisbane.

Breallyn: Oh, bloody hell.

My geography’s all out. Yeah. How have I had that wrong in my head all these years?

Lyndon: I’ve got no idea. But Powderfinger are Brisbane. And one of the more famous of late bands or artists from Perth is Tame Impala.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Kevin Parker.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: But anyway — Ray Thistlethwaite — stupidly talented.

Yeah, great band. Yeah. But just, I do remember there being this sort of like —

Breallyn: Oh, how can you be, like, an upper-crust Sydney guy with, yeah —

Lyndon: Yeah, like —

Breallyn: … you’ve got nothing to sing about.

Lyndon: Yeah, and I guess they were sort of getting around at the same time bands like Jet were, and so on —

Breallyn: Okay. Yeah…

Lyndon: … but yeah, there is a little bit of a — don’t you think — a slight towards artists that don’t appear to have had a life experience that has had some sort of turmoil or — yeah — some hardships. Even Bob Dylan created a persona, didn’t he?

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Of where he was from, and it’s like you weren’t from there at all.

Breallyn: And it might be just something that we expect in our artists — you describe the pain and make it universal for us.

That’s what we hire you to do. That’s what we rely on you to do — is to humanise what it is that we’re feeling. Figure it out for us and put it into something that’s meaningful. Yeah, I think that this ideal and the idea and this kind of persona of the tortured artist — it’s persisted for centuries. It’s not something new. It’s not something that we’re just wanting to see people suffer now, and we can look up their backgrounds on Google.

It’s like it’s always been a thing. And yeah, I suppose for good reason, because there is something about some artworks that are a lot deeper. And especially once you know a story behind it, or once you can connect your own suffering to that thing — that song, that painting, whatever it is — and it describes you.

We’ve all heard it before, heard a song and gone, “Oh, it’s like they’re singing my song — like they’re telling the story that I have.” And there’s something very cathartic about that, and you feel very seen and heard when that happens.

Healing Without Losing Your Edge

Breallyn: But what I wanted to cover today is the idea that — do we have to stay in the trauma? And coming back to that idea again of artists going, “I’m scared to let it go. I don’t wanna process it. I don’t wanna go to counselling. I don’t wanna heal from this thing,” because it is the deepest root of my inspiration and where it’s coming from.

The descriptions that I can bring, or the best lyrics, or the best whatever — is coming from that place. So there’s almost like a — not a fear, but like a reluctance to move on. Not to get over something, but to continue on with life rather than stay in that moment of intense pain that is conversely also the source of the inspiration.

Lyndon: I wonder too, how much it is — like in terms of the staying there or unwillingness to move on, or even try a different way of getting to express yourself — I wonder how much of that is the devil you know.

Breallyn: Yeah. That’s true.

Lyndon: And especially, I don’t know, if you’re…

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: … it’s hard to know. It’s such a personal thing —

doesn’t — I don’t know, I don’t get how anyone on the outside could actually — can you even really comment on it? It’s tough, isn’t it? You’re commenting on it.

Breallyn: I’m commenting —

Lyndon: Now —

Breallyn: … I’m questioning.

I’m just talking about it. I’m obviously — we’re not experts.

Lyndon: No. We’re just people that talk about stuff.

Breallyn: No one’s an expert. Everyone’s an expert.

I think what the fear can be is that you’ll lose the edge, and lose the intensity and that real depth and the real thing that pushes something from being an idea into being a really good idea, or a really great source of inspiration.

Something that’s gonna bring your best art out. And I definitely get that. And like I said, I would put myself into this bucket too. We’ve talked about Birdie quite a lot, and some of the fear and the pain that we’ve undergone through her diagnosis process and the fear for her future and things like that.

It’s definitely some of the most intense feelings, worries, or pains I’ve ever had — is through that. And I’ve pretty much found since that time, almost everything I write relates to her in some way, or relates to that in some way.

So yeah, even when I start out writing about something completely different, I tend to tap into it again and again, or explore some of the questions again and again about equality, worth, wildness of humanity —

Lyndon: Geez.

Breallyn: I don’t know, just — oh — deep questions.

Lyndon: Yeah.

Breallyn: Yeah, so that tends to come out again and again. And I don’t know whether — that’s obviously something in me that’ll never be like erased, or processed enough that it doesn’t exist anymore or anything like that.

It’s always gonna be there.

But yeah, I think that some of that fear can come from — that is the rawest thing. It’s the most real thing. It’s something that — it feels more, I think — sometimes our life can bland out a bit. You get into routines or you go to work or whatever, and once it’s comfortable, the intensity of feeling isn’t there as strongly.

But as soon as you are thinking of those painful moments, or like you’re still processing a trauma or something like that, you can feel the most alive even when it feels the most painful.

Tangents: Bombs, Podcasts, and John Mayer

Lyndon: That’s what ecstasy’s for, isn’t it?

Breallyn: Is that your podcast recommendation?

Lyndon: That’s what drugs are for, and alcohol — that’s so that you can go about your business. And then every now and then when something really makes you feel something, you’re going, “Oh, that — I can’t have that.” And then you turn to substances. And that’s — actually, earlier today I was wondering whether — you know how you can’t say the word bomb on a plane?

Breallyn: Yes.

Lyndon: I was wondering, can you say it on a podcast? What —

Breallyn: What if someone’s listening to the podcast on a plane and someone else hears you say bomb, and —

Lyndon: Oh, no. Yeah…

Breallyn: … right as we’re talking —

Lyndon: … they put their phones on, yeah. I was — the yeah, only reason it came up is because I was watching someone put a bomb together on TV.

It was on a TV show.

Not even a current show. And I was watching how he put it in his backpack very carefully, and I thought, “I could do that job.” Because I wouldn’t —

Breallyn: Yes, you’re quite careful with — yeah — putting things in your backpack.

Lyndon: I thought I could do that.

Breallyn: Like your laptop.

Lyndon: Because I imagine there’d be some people that would be really good at putting it all together, and then they’d put it in their bag, and they’d be fairly careful about that.

But then they’d just sling it on the back of them as they jumped on the bike — or they’d just throw it into the back of the car —

Breallyn: Oh, okay.

Lyndon: … and then the whole thing —

Breallyn: Yeah. I’d probably knock it on the doorway when I go out.

Lyndon: Premature — premature explosion.

Breallyn: Explosion, yeah. Yeah, I’d do it all carefully, and then I’d go, “Okay, it’s on my back.

Oh, but I’ve gotta take this bag. I’ve gotta get —”

Lyndon: Yeah, you’d squash it.

Breallyn: “… all the dog’s stuff. Oh, I better get my… I’m getting my coffee.”

Lyndon: You need Birdie’s —

Breallyn: I’m getting —

Lyndon: … her communication device and her iPad.

Breallyn: Yep.

Lyndon: And —

Breallyn: And her bag with all the spares in it…

Lyndon: … with all the spare clothes, and the —

Breallyn: Also —

Lyndon: … the drink bottles —

Breallyn: … and the — two different coats in case the — yeah — temperature changes.

Lyndon: That’s right. Yeah.

Breallyn: A change of —

Lyndon: … shoes.

Breallyn: And then I have to hold her hand. Oh. And the dog’s leash, and all the stuff.

Lyndon: You wouldn’t make it out the door.

Breallyn: Yeah, no. Why bother? Let’s just explode the bomb before it goes in the backpack at this point.

Lyndon: I just remembered Tony Martin’s podcast, Sizzletown. There’s so many explosions on that podcast. I think he talks about broadcasting from Podworks or something in Richmond, and I don’t even — I suspect it’s not a real place at all.

Breallyn: Probably just his lounge room.

Lyndon: He’s in his lounge, I know, but whether there is actually a place called Podworks in Richmond — it’d be hilarious if there was.

But there wouldn’t be one because it’s been blown up so many times. So I guess you can say bomb.

Breallyn: Is it with those sound effects push buttons that you —

Lyndon: Oh, he loves it…

Breallyn: … yeah.

Lyndon: Yeah.

Breallyn: Wow.

Lyndon: Yeah. See, when I was a teenager — what’s it called when you’re like wet behind the ears and you’re highly influenced by something?

Stupid. When I was a stupid teenager — no, when I used to listen to the D Generation on the radio, before they had their TV series and whatnot, he would’ve been the guy behind so many of those sound effects and, you know — just collecting the discs full of the different foley sounds and so on.

And yeah, his podcast — you should go listen to it — is just completely riddled with all of these sound effects and, yeah, so there’s loads of explosions. Anyway.

Breallyn: So why are you talking about putting a bomb in your backpack? Where did that even come from?

Lyndon: Because I could do that job very carefully.

Oh, because you said something before about explosions. What did you say? I don’t know. Rewind the tape.

Breallyn: I just mean —

Lyndon: Rewind the tape.

Breallyn: Okay.

Lyndon: What were you talking about?

Breallyn: I was waiting for you to bring that whole — thing back around. I don’t know what —

Lyndon: I can bring it —

Breallyn: … thing back around.

Lyndon: I can bring it back around.

Breallyn: No.

Lyndon: What were you talking about?

Breallyn: Not explosions. I don’t think so.

Lyndon: I’ll need to listen back.

Breallyn: Okay. Get back to us in a later episode as to whether you just got sidetracked by your own brain or —

Lyndon: No, it was a little aside, but it was attached to something specific.

Breallyn: I think what people do worry about, yeah, is losing that edge — like losing the depth of the feelings or the being able to really dig into that source of pain and use it for art. And if there’s healing that takes place, then you might not be able to access that as well, or it becomes more of a memory of the past rather than something that you are tapping into and able to use in the current work that you’re doing or the current project.

But I was thinking about it in terms of — we know more now, like as a species. Psychology and neuroscience know more about brain processing and trauma processing and healing and becoming more aware of your personality and that kind of thing.

And you —

Lyndon: Yeah…

Breallyn: Yeah. So —

Lyndon: You’d hope they know more, wouldn’t you?

Breallyn: They know —

Lyndon: More than they used to. Hopefully tomorrow they know more. Reminds me of a comic. And he said someone showed him a picture and said, “This is a photo of me when I was younger.” And he said, “Every photo is of when you were younger.”

Which is true.

Breallyn: So true, I know.

Lyndon: So you would hope that, yeah, that they know —

Breallyn: They know —

Lyndon: … more…

Breallyn: … more now —

Lyndon: More —

Breallyn: … than yesterday.

Lyndon: … than they did yesterday or last year.

Breallyn: Yeah. I suppose when we’re thinking about —

Lyndon: … whether we all know more collectively —

Breallyn: Yeah…

Lyndon: … is, I would say the graph looks very different.

Breallyn: It’s more bell-shaped.

Lyndon: At the very least it’s just flat-lined.

Breallyn: Yeah. I’ve heard people say, “You’ll never be as young again as you are today,” so, you know, go out and do that thing.

Lyndon: Yeah.

Breallyn: Join that gym.

Lyndon: Yeah.

Breallyn: So I’m just wanting to think about the difference between choosing to not explore healing and processing trauma and that kind of thing, because you don’t wanna lose access to that place where you think your art is coming from — that’s a good thing.

Whether we can look at not healing from something because we’re worried that it will then make us lose that source of inspiration and where we think the best art that we’re doing is coming from. But can we look at processing trauma, healing from things, moving on to a new stage of life, and still being able to use those past experiences and all the raw emotions and the raw material that we’ve experienced from that — bringing it into fresh new works for today?

And I think that it is possible. I don’t think that we, as artists, need to stay stuck and stay rooted in that deep hurt and the tortured artist place. Because I think that it is possible to park that stuff in a place that you can still access it, that you can still reach for those inspirations from it, but as a complete person be moving forward — healing, processing, and coming up with fresh stuff that isn’t necessarily from that place.

Lyndon: The other thing that has occurred to me while you’ve been talking —

Breallyn: Do you mean you weren’t listening?…

Lyndon: … yes, is I’m just wondering what I’m gonna have for lunch.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Whether it’s leftovers or… No. I can’t remember the saying bomb on the plane thing. I can’t remember where that came from.

I’ve lost that thread. Which I’m sure was very important. But — we were talking once about the untrustworthy narrator.

And how you can hear a song and you think that’s that person’s story. And even if they were the one that wrote the song — because obviously there’s a lot of singers that didn’t write the stuff.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: They’re not the writers of the words even.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: But even if they did write it, and they’ve put it in first person, doesn’t mean they lived what they’re singing, right?

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: The same is — in a similar fashion or a similar way, you can have the tortured artist that also happens to write songs like “I’m Dreaming of a White Christmas” or —

Breallyn: Yeah. That’s so true.

Lyndon: … all the songs that make you feel good, but their life is a mess. And I think, what a talent. Do you know what I mean? Like —

Breallyn: Yeah. Absolutely.

Lyndon: And it does make sense that you could have someone that can make something so timeless or beautiful. Even Van Gogh — like you look at paintings he did of daffodils.

No, not daffodils. Sunflowers.

And it can make you feel something other than that it came from a tortured soul who was broke and cut his ear off. Or was that Peter that cut his ear off?

Breallyn: Several ears missing.

Lyndon: Was Van Gogh in the Bible? That’s my question to you. Anyway. Look out, Van Gogh’s got a bomb.

I think secretly everyone wants the artist to be tortured and poor.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Tortured, poor, and then we’ll give you the thumbs up.

Breallyn: Yep.

Lyndon: But it doesn’t mean that their art reflects that necessarily.

It could be the opposite of that.

Breallyn: Yeah. That’s true as well. And like sometimes the tortured part just means that’s why you spend so much time —

Lyndon: Crying…

Breallyn: … no, being like honing your skills, because it’s the thing that allows you to escape from the pain, or it’s the thing that brings relief, or that you paint your way through.

Lyndon: Substance abuse.

Breallyn: Of course.

Lyndon: That’s how we got onto bombs.

Breallyn: Okay.

Lyndon: Yeah.

I’m not sure why…

Breallyn: Still not connecting those dots. No. There we go. Yeah.

Lyndon: Can I — I know you’ve got more to say on this, probably some very good —

Breallyn: Oh, maybe.

Maybe not.

Lyndon: … educated things to say. Can I talk about John Mayer for a second?

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Because he is about to release a new single. And it was interesting — I heard him saying the sound of this album is gonna be very direct. Like he said, “It’s gonna feel like I’m talking to you right in front of your face.”

He was like, “This is gonna be very quite simple and very direct.”

Breallyn: Okay.

Chasing New Sounds: The Artist Who Refuses to Stand Still

Lyndon: But —

Breallyn: This is all producer stuff that other people may never have considered ever before. Like where —

Lyndon: Oh, you wouldn’t con —

Breallyn: … does it sound like — as —

Lyndon: No, but you — voices coming from — you would know. You, it makes you feel something, and it makes you either like it or not like it as well.

Breallyn: Yeah. Yeah.

Lyndon: And he said that what he’s always done is he’ll go, “I wanna write a song in that style. I wanna see if I can make it sound a particular way and do this particular thing.” He goes, “And then I do that, and I go, I like that.” And then he goes, “And then I’ve done that.

And so then the next thing I record — I want it to sound like this, and I wanna try and do this, and it’s gonna be a bit different to the last thing I did. And I go, that’s nice. And now that one’s done.”

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: And it’s evident now that he’s been around for a long time, and all his albums sound so different — to the point that I know people that are massive fans, and they’ll go, “I don’t like that album at all.”

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: He had — it’s too country. They’ll say, it’s just too country, and they won’t listen to it. They tried — because they’re fans, but they go, “Oh, no.” And then after that, like he came out with a Yacht Rock album. And even the look was — there was all neon, fluorescent pink kinda stylings to it, to the artwork and videos and stuff.

And it sounded completely different to the bluegrassy stuff that he’d done, or even the pop stuff that he did when he was much younger, or the three-piece stuff that he’s done. Yeah. There’s someone who is not holding onto the identity that he was at one point.

Which might be way more important for — I guess with a band or something that might not have potentially as long a lifespan. Suddenly Def Leppard comes to mind and just ruins my entire argument. But what was Sid Vicious —

Breallyn: Sex Pistols.

Lyndon: … like Sex Pistols. You can be a Sex Pistol on and off the stage.

Breallyn: Yeah. That was definitely much —

Lyndon: For —

Breallyn: … more about a culture.

Lyndon: … for six years or three years —

Breallyn: Yeah…

Lyndon: … or however long it was, and like you can write from that.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Legitimate.

Breallyn: Yeah, like the anarchy kind of — yeah — mindset. Yeah. That’s —

Lyndon: Not — yeah, like that’s all legitimate. But can you do that 20 years later? And yeah, obviously some bands can, and that’s their brand, and that’s their style, and that’s fine. But John Mayer’s clearly not one of those. And I just think, you know —

Breallyn: Sid Vicious — didn’t he die not too long after that?

Lyndon: Yeah.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: But like he could easily have gone, “I’m just gonna keep drawing on the things that have —

Breallyn: Yeah, that pain. Yeah.

Lyndon: … that have made me.”

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: And artistically it’s gonna reflect that, and he hasn’t done that. And his trajectory has been, I think, really interesting from a popular culture viewpoint.

Breallyn: Yeah, okay.

Lyndon: Because from an artistic viewpoint, from a critical viewpoint, he’s always been on this trajectory of just being a master guitarist and songwriter.

So that’s never changed.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: It’s more just him going, “My next album, I wanna see if I can get this sound.”

Breallyn: Yeah. So it’s more — yeah, that’s about the craft and the sounds, rather than going, “This is the existential thing that I’m thinking of, and the whole album’s about that.” So it’s —

Lyndon: It’s still — I don’t know. Because the album still might be about the exact same subjects.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: But stylistically in how he’s gone about them, they sound different — probably largely because he’s set himself a challenge, whatever interested him at the time.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: And that’s what led him to record and produce in a particular way.

And to be able to make decisions about a particular direction in the studio and go, “No, not that. I’ve just played a solo that I know is not right for the song.” And you go, “That was an awesome solo.” “Yeah, it’s not right for what I’m hearing and for what I’m aiming for.”

But that kind of solo — that’s what everyone loved on the last album. Doesn’t matter.

Breallyn: Yeah. It’s not what’s right.

Lyndon: It doesn’t matter.

Breallyn: Yeah. Interesting.

Lyndon: It is interesting.

Breallyn: I think what has been discovered, yeah, in more modern sort of psychology and neuroscience — and this is for everyone, not just artists, obviously — but being able to heal from and process and learn new strategies and so on to deal with maybe neuropsychiatric stuff, or even just neurotype difficulties, it doesn’t mean that you need to lose access to the depth of those emotions.

It’s definitely possible to tap back into that or submerge yourself into that kind of place again, but not have to live there in order to get the inspiration from it. So yeah, it just was something that I was thinking about this week. And I think maybe I was thinking about it because I had a horrible experience.

Lyndon: Ooh, tell me more. Finally, we’ve got to the interesting part of the episode.

Breallyn: I think you’ve heard of it. Well —

Lyndon: Oh, you had a terrible — tell me more, you tortured soul…

Breallyn: I had this terrible time.

Lyndon: This will legitimise you.

Breallyn: Will it?

Lyndon: I don’t know. What is it?

Birdie’s Hospital Meltdown: When Trauma Hits Without Warning

Breallyn: I took Birdie to the hospital.

Lyndon: Oh, gosh, no. Don’t relive this trauma.

No. Go on, tell us.

Breallyn: Yeah, it wasn’t too good. And it was a scheduled appointment. I had to go and take her to a new physiotherapy department, which was something I’ve been pushing for a while, and trying to find the right specialist for her.

Lyndon: So for our new listeners — Birdie has a condition called Phelan-McDermid Syndrome, and it comes with lots of complications.

She’s non-verbal. She has regression — she can learn things, and then anything she learned can be lost overnight. You know —

Breallyn: Things like toilet training or —

Lyndon: Toilet training.

Breallyn: … any speech or communication efforts.

Lyndon: See, but yeah.

Breallyn: Yeah. Even eating — she’s, yeah.

Lyndon: Eating, yeah.

Breallyn: Or walking.

Lyndon: That’s right. Yeah. It took her years to learn to drink from a straw. And she still might not be able to do that next year. Who knows?

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: We don’t know.

So anyway, that’s — yeah, just —

Breallyn: Yeah, so it’s an ongoing thing to make sure she’s healthy and well. And at the moment we’ve got a lot of concerns about her walking and her lower limbs and things. So I’ve sought out this specialist.

Lyndon: That was —

Breallyn: Easy. Also — yeah, that was easy. Gone through all the process to get referrals and so on.

Expensive, not easy. It’s taken months.

Lyndon: It’s taken almost all year.

Breallyn: Yeah. Yeah, it has.

Lyndon: And it’s now September.

Breallyn: Yep. So finally, last Thursday we had the appointment booked. A support worker who I often take to appointments wasn’t available. She had a different client that day.

So you and I, Lyndon, were gonna take Birdie together, and — yeah — got to the day. You’d been unwell for about a week, and you just weren’t gonna be able to go along.

Lyndon: Yeah. And I’m still — still trying to sort that — yeah — unwellness out.

Breallyn: Yep. Still not healthy at all.

Lyndon: Although I sound chirpy. See — I am — the tortured soul who appears chirpy and — definitely not a threat on planes.

Everything’s fine.

Breallyn: So yeah, the day rocked around. I was like, “Okay, Birdie and I are just gonna do this ourselves. It’ll probably be okay. I might be able to — look, hopefully she’ll be okay.” And it — usually we have two people, because one person needs to attend to her the whole time — talk her through it, really be there to emotionally regulate her and help her process whatever’s going on, just be there moment by moment so that she is completely supported — whilst the other person is engaging with the doctors and specialists and explaining the problem and talking, asking the questions and talking about strategies and so on.

So I was like, “Okay, I’ve just gotta play both roles,” and I had everything ready — iPads, bubbles, stickers, colouring books, everything ready to go. But unfortunately, going into the hospital, I think, was possibly a trigger point for her. She’s obviously spent a lot of time in the hospital and —

Lyndon: She’s also gotten used to it, to the point that we go, “Oh, she’s used to it now.”

Breallyn: Yeah, she’s used to it.

Lyndon: Sometimes you go along, and it’s like she’s been —

Breallyn: Yeah…

Lyndon: … great. And when I say great, we sometimes have to remember that our great would be anyone else’s — like —

Breallyn: Really bad day…

Lyndon: … really bad day.

Breallyn: Yeah. But she —

Lyndon: But sometimes the great is —

Breallyn: Did pretty well, yeah…

Lyndon: … is actually pretty okay.

Breallyn: Yeah.

As in she might remember that there’s the McDonald’s near the —

Lyndon: And she might — fish —

Breallyn: … tanks —

Lyndon: … kind of thing — yeah. And so that’s enough. Or she’ll be happy to play in the outside area.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Or the car ride down, she wasn’t squealing —

Breallyn: Yeah…

Lyndon: … the whole way. So there’s all sorts of factors —

Breallyn: There’s all sorts of things — which — that make us go, “Oh, that was really fun. That was good.”

Lyndon: … we go, “That was actually pretty good.”

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: But for us — even when our other kids were younger, we would’ve not been happy at all on those good days.

Breallyn: Oh, yeah, if it was one of our other children —

Lyndon: Children, yeah.

Breallyn: … because they obviously have different capacity and, you know — yeah.

Lyndon: We —

Breallyn: … have the ability to not scream the whole time. But yeah, whereas — yeah — with Birdie, it’s a reflection on how well her brain is stable and things like that.

So it’s a whole different thing.

Lyndon: So this was actually a bad day for her, not for you.

Breallyn: This is — it was a bad day for her, and it became a bad day for me. So yeah, even on the way there, she was screaming a lot.

By the time we parked and got, figured out which department to be in, and I found it —

and we got to the reception of that department — and I was trying to give her name — she was already screaming, and it wasn’t good.

I was pulling out the iPad, which is usually the final, last line of defense. That was already her first line because she just wasn’t able to cope. And yeah, going into this appointment, the specialist that I wanted was there. Everything was gonna be — like, everything was set up perfectly as I would’ve wanted it as the person discussing everything and wanting the answers, and she just wasn’t able to cope.

And so she started to have a meltdown quite quickly, and was self-harming and attacking me — pulling my hair, pinching me, and that kind of thing, and hitting herself — which was really distressing.

And I just started to cry immediately.

And I was like, “Oh, dammit.” I’m trying to settle her obviously and co-regulate her, bring her through the worst of the meltdowns, and get her back into a place of emotional regulation and safety for herself —

so that I could make a decision from there: “Can we continue with this appointment, or do I just need to get her out of this building as quickly as possible?” But she just really — she calmed down a little bit, but really wasn’t able to get through it. But what I’ve noticed is that in years gone by, I was always able to be very calm, precise, clinical, detached almost — like coping with whatever was going on, but still able to really clearly enunciate what I wanted and needed and advocate for Birdie.

And if I didn’t feel like we were getting the answers that were needed, or people weren’t understanding, I would have no problem continuing to talk at people and pretty much drive the situation until we got the outcomes that Birdie would need. And then later on, I would realise that I’d — in order to do that — obviously pushed all of my emotional reactions to that situation aside.

And then I would have a bit of a comedown afterwards and figure it out.

Lyndon: That’s true, yeah.

Breallyn: And now I feel like — having had so many traumatic experiences — my nice buffer zone there where I can just be in that more clinical headspace and a coping kind of headspace — that my coping has gone, and now I’m just like — I just became a puddle, going, “I don’t wanna talk.” And all of a sudden her behaviors and her struggling in this moment is putting me straight back into the times in the past where we’ve been here for weeks on end with her not being able to come out of that headspace, and how difficult it was to just get her back to some kind of baseline.

So yeah, I just felt plunked straight back into it, and almost no time had passed since a few years ago and Thursday’s appointment. So yeah.

Lyndon: Yeah. It’s amazing how quickly it can happen.

Breallyn: Yeah. It really does. It’s funny how trauma works that way, I think.

Lyndon: You hear about — used to hear about returned servicemen that fought in the Vietnam War. And when they’d hear a helicopter fly overhead — yeah —

Breallyn: Yeah…

Lyndon: … how it would just trigger them — they’d either hide or they’d —

Breallyn: Yep. It would just bring back instantly. Yeah.

Lyndon: … they couldn’t control their first reaction. And —

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: … your body holds — it’s not just the memory. Yeah. Your nervous system holds that memory as well, and so it’s a physical, felt thing, isn’t it?

Breallyn: Yeah, it really is. Yeah. Yep. And you don’t have much control whatsoever.

Lyndon: Just happens straight away.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Yeah.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Art as Therapy: Processing Trauma Through the Work

Breallyn: So maybe this is my way of thinking about — maybe some trauma counselling is in order. Maybe I’ve got — just — some work to do. I’ve got —

Lyndon: Just write your book.

Breallyn: … I’ve got some processing to do.

Lyndon: Just put it in the book. That’s what — see, that’s what I reckon too. I’m probably completely wrong about this, but I feel like there’s gotta be some truth to this, don’t you think? Let’s just say, let’s just take you as an example — asking for a friend.

You’re writing a novel, and all these things that you’re experiencing — you’re conscious that some of these things in some way are gonna make it into the writing, and some of it is not, because it’s not required, not needed, not appropriate. For whatever reason, that’s a decision that you’re gonna make with your head and with your heart and with your intuition.

And so you would think also then, if you go to some random trauma counsellor — whoever, psychologist or something — to talk about all these things, and then that gets watered down or diluted, or it gets pushed into another area of your brain that you’ve got steps to take to think about it — so now there’s more of a disconnect between that and actually what you’re writing. Yeah, maybe it helps it, but maybe it like — you know what I mean? And that’s that fear that you were talking about —

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: … earlier.

Breallyn: Yeah. It’s like — will you lose it? Will you —

Lyndon: You go, “Is it legitimate or is it not?” And you go, “Who knows?”

And but are you willing to take that chance? Because there’s plenty of examples of people that — that are still alive as well, so they haven’t said something and then — “No, it hasn’t affected me at all. And I wrote a bestseller.” And then you go, “Where are they now? Oh, let’s not talk about what happened to them.” But there’s plenty of examples of people that go, “Yeah, I channeled it into my art.”

And, “I’m fine.” Yeah. “I’m fine.”

Breallyn: That was my processing of the thing, or —

Lyndon: Yeah…

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Yeah, I didn’t start writing it to process all this stuff.

But that’s what’s happened, and you know.

Breallyn: Yeah. Look, it is — I don’t know — something to grapple with.

Lyndon: Plus artists can’t afford to — no — pay for professional help.

Breallyn: That’s so expensive.

Lyndon: Are you kidding me? We have to turn to our art — and pray that it does something —

Breallyn: Definitely gonna have to.

Lyndon: … to help us.

Breallyn: Yeah. Yeah. I think — I know — in this particular situation, yeah, like I guess I’d be happy to keep the trauma, if it was just something to use —

Lyndon: Or your friend.

Breallyn: … in the art.

Lyndon: Your friend. Your friend.

Breallyn: My friend.

Lyndon: Like they would be happy.

Breallyn: She would be. But unfortunately she still has to —

Lyndon: He, she —

Breallyn: … has to rock up to many more hospital appointments and not lose it. Be able to not be re-traumatised every time, I think. So I think that’s, yeah. I suppose that’s what I’m — that’s my particular thing — is that I’ve gotta — it’s not just like something in the past, it’s something that’s ongoing, and I need to be able to advocate before, during, and after more traumatic occurrences.

Lyndon: Yeah. That’s the thing. Yeah. So I don’t know. It’d be nice to — it’d be nice to be able to go, “That’s dealt with now.”

Breallyn: Yeah. That’s over.

Lyndon: And then there’s the same —

Breallyn: I’m not likely to be in that situation again, so I can just kind of — yeah — leave it there as —

Lyndon: Yeah.

Breallyn: … old open wounds.

And I think maybe that’s the thing that we’re —

Lyndon: Which are the best kind of wounds?

Breallyn: The festering ones. That might be what I’m actually talking about — is can you use a scar in the same way that you could use an open wound, in terms of inspiration and —

Lyndon: I guess if you don’t pick at the scab.

It’s got to scab before it scars.

Breallyn: Oh, this episode’s way too medical altogether.

Lyndon: I know. Who do you think this episode’s gonna appeal to? Asking for a friend —

Breallyn: Oh, man…

Lyndon: … slash SEO algorithm designer.

Breallyn: Like the one person in the world that this might be relevant to.

Lyndon: What’s your topic called?

Breallyn: I don’t know.

Lyndon: You don’t have a topic title?

Breallyn: No, because every time I’d have one —

Lyndon: It changes…

Breallyn: … not the algorithm, but when we figure out how to title it for the best seeking of our audience —

Lyndon: You know what? How much titling do you do of these episodes?

Breallyn: No, I don’t, because — like I said — you do it.

Lyndon: I do it. I title it based on what was the main thing that we spoke about. That’s how I title it.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: But I have discovered in uploading transcripts that some of my titles aren’t the best titles to have on a website.

Breallyn: Okay. Yep.

Lyndon: I think last week’s one was creative envy. You can go to Apple Podcasts.

Breallyn: You can go to our website, actually.

Go have a look at it.

Lyndon: It’s probably called — look at all our titles — the exact same thing on the website, because you know, it matters, but it might not matter as much as I think it does. Creative envy, turning comparison into creative fuel — like that might be better for someone searching on Google or whatever. But yeah, when I title them, I go, “What did we actually talk about?” Especially for my episodes.

Breallyn: I feel like this one’s rambled a bit, and I’ve —

Lyndon: That’s your fault.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: Because I made a promise to not ramble today, and I think I’ve done pretty well.

Breallyn: Except when you spoke about bombs on planes. That was — I just —

Lyndon: That, yeah. That came from substance abuse. You shouldn’t have brought me back to this, because it came to me sitting, having my porridge this morning, feeling better about where I am in life in terms of not caring so much about whether somebody likes me. And I actually feel almost happier when I go out into the world and have — not an altercation with someone — but where something transpires and I actually don’t care what they think about me.

Breallyn: Oh, okay.

Lyndon: And I feel like when that happens, I’ve turned a corner.

Breallyn: You’re growing up a little bit.

Lyndon: And then someone — I think — just happened to be putting a bomb together on a show.

Breallyn: Oh, okay. And you thought, “I can do that. And I can carry it safely out of the house with my backpack.”

Lyndon: I don’t — the soldering looked difficult.

Breallyn: Okay.

Lyndon: But the backpack part —

Breallyn: Should I be concerned?

Lyndon: No. And I’ll tell you why. Because years ago, I bought a spare battery. I had to order it, and it cost $34, for my beard trimmer. My Wahl — W-A-H-L.

Breallyn: Okay.

Lyndon: However you pronounce that.

Breallyn: Yep.

Lyndon: So I bought this battery.

It finally arrived after a couple of weeks, and it’s got two very, very fine wires that need to be soldered into place. It’s like a lithium battery. It’s meant to last like five years or something. And I even got a specific soldering iron to be able to do such delicate work.

Breallyn: Wow.

Sounds like it all cost a lot more than —

Lyndon: I don’t wanna keep talking —

Breallyn: … getting a new one.

Lyndon: … this is where I now uphold my promise to not ramble. Because I’ve just realised —

Breallyn: You started now…

Lyndon: … how bad this sounds.

Breallyn: You started this.

Lyndon: In our bathroom cabinet where my shavers are — heck, because I don’t use shavers, who am I kidding? — there’s a padded envelope with the battery still in it.

Breallyn: Oh, no.

Lyndon: And in the garage there’s the soldering iron, which is probably, arguably, possibly, hardly — it’s been used once.

I remember using it once.

Breallyn: Oh my gosh. So you didn’t actually do the thing that you ordered?

Lyndon: No. And when I was watching this bomb being put together, there were lots of components, there was lots of soldering, and then the final thing was him putting a nine-volt battery into something that he soldered into place.

So I think you’ll be fine.

Breallyn: Okay, I’m definitely —

Lyndon: I have to leave now.

Breallyn: Well, let me give you even one more reason why —

Lyndon: Do you wanna title this episode?

Breallyn: … I’m gonna be fine.

Lyndon: Yeah, go on.

Breallyn: Let me tell you this. So you mentioned that you were sitting there eating your porridge. I can tell you, you couldn’t even put your porridge together properly.

You —

Lyndon: How do you know?

Breallyn: Every single day. Because every day you go, “Oh, dammit. Today it’s burnt. Today it’s watery. Today, too much salt, not enough salt.” You don’t measure anything. You don’t —

Lyndon: No.

Breallyn: … cook it the same length of time.

Lyndon: No.

Breallyn: You usually — you just put stuff in, turn on the stove, and wander off.

Lyndon: Yeah, that wandering off’s not good as you’re getting older.

Breallyn: No.

Lyndon: Because —

Breallyn: And then you come back and go —

Lyndon: I’m not there yet, but for elderly people, if they do that — it can be the end of them.

Breallyn: I think it’s gonna be the end of us.

Lyndon: “How did he die?” “The porridge caught on fire.”

Breallyn: Yeah. That would not surprise me.

Lyndon: Would it surprise you then that — of course it wouldn’t. This — hang on. Are you talking about past times or this morning?

Breallyn: Every day. Every day I hear a story about how my porridge sounds crunchy.

Lyndon: Well —

Breallyn: Is it supposed to?

Lyndon: Okay, here’s a PSA for everyone, especially if you’re a lover of coffee with almond milk.

So let’s cut the audience down by a third.

Breallyn: Even further.

Our audience of one is now —

Lyndon: But yeah, so while my porridge was on the stove this morning, I may have been in the studio —

Breallyn: Oh my gosh…

Lyndon: … putting the final touches on a post on Patreon, which I’d started last night. And I was like, “Oh, I’m gonna just see where that’s at.” And then you start to get into the formatting, and you’re like, “How’s that — why does that photo look like that?” And then I heard what I thought might have been crackling on the stove. And I ran as, you know —

Breallyn: Shuffled…

Lyndon: I shuffled over. And it was sticking, but thankfully I was using the non-stick saucepan, which — so it does give it a nice crust.

Breallyn: Oh, yuck. Every — ugh, everything about —

Lyndon: And I had to quickly stir it —

Breallyn: … your porridge makes me feel gross.

Lyndon: … so that the salt was mixed through and I wasn’t just gonna get a couple of mouthfuls. Anyway, but then after that, I was doing milk on the stove for my coffee — almond milk — and I think I was doing the same thing.

I was in here doing something, either playing guitar or doing the same post. I can’t remember.

Breallyn: Stop it.

Lyndon: And I just heard what I knew — my heart dropped into my stomach a little bit. And I’m like, “Oh no, I’m burning the milk.”

Breallyn: Stop.

Lyndon: And I shuffled even faster over — because I’ll be damned if my coffee’s gonna be messed up.

And it was well over 200 degrees.

Breallyn: Oh, Lyndon.

Jeez…

Lyndon: On the — I don’t even know what I was reading.

Breallyn: How?

Lyndon: That must’ve been Fahrenheit.

Breallyn: Boiling point is 100 degrees. Yeah. Okay, Fahrenheit. Rightio.

Lyndon: Fahrenheit.

Breallyn: Yeah.

Lyndon: And it was boiling over — yeah — like right over everywhere, and I just thought, “Smells a bit nutty.”

And I thought, “You know what? I’ve overheated almond milk before and it’s been all right. I’ve never done it like this, but I reckon this could be okay.” Not a problem. So there you go. If you’ve put your almond milk on for too long —

Breallyn: And wandered off into the studio —

Lyndon: … on the stove, because —

Breallyn: Oh my gosh…

Lyndon: Yeah, it’s still fine.

Breallyn: This is where — no one should follow any of our advice for anything, especially not cooking. Very little anything, because — that’s not the way to do anything, Lyndon.

Lyndon: What do you mean?

Breallyn: You can’t cook like that. You can’t.

Lyndon: Technically that’s not cooking, that’s just heating up milk, and —

Breallyn: True.

So unsafe.

Lyndon: Yeah, that’s fair.

Signing Off: In Memory of Dolly Parton

Breallyn: I think we’re gonna wrap this episode up. But one thing I wanted to say — this week the world has lost the great Dolly Parton.

Lyndon: Oh. I knew, I just didn’t know you were gonna mention it.

Breallyn: Yeah. Incredible woman, great songwriter, lifelong musician. And —

Lyndon: She’s written like 3,000 songs.

Breallyn: Yeah, really amazing. And just —

Lyndon: Probably more…

Breallyn: … an amazing, like happy, loving, caring person. So I thought she was worth a mention. Because she’s worth more than a mention. She’s amazing. She obviously came from very dire poverty, and her family was so poor.

And then she went on to make millions and millions of dollars.

And she didn’t use that money to accrue more money for herself and stockpile it and figure out how she was gonna screw even more money out of every other human on the planet. What she went on to use her money for was to buy books for a lot of American children — I don’t think it was just relegated to the poorest of the poor.

But she basically supplied books for a whole generation of kids, so that they would literally get sent a book every month in the mail so their parents could read to them from preschool onwards and through primary school — or elementary school, I think they call it. And just have that richness. She called it the Imagination Library, I think it was.

And yeah, just — that’s where her money went: to enrich children’s literacy, imaginations, engagement with the world, creativity. That’s what she wanted to do. And yeah, like, what an amazing thing. So she definitely came from very humble beginnings and made a massive difference in the world.

So yeah. Good on you, Dolly. We love you.

Lyndon: All right. I think I’m having heart palpitations, so —

Breallyn: Go have another coffee.

Lyndon: Yep. Thanks for listening, everybody, and we will catch you all on next week’s episode.

Breallyn: Yeah. Catch you then. Bye.

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